Racist - The Bear and Badger

mistercrayon

Do you think it’s giving him too much credit to observe that we do conveniently (and generally) forget about portions of tragedies when they are inconvenient to our narratives. He’s not wrong to point out it’s almost always an after thought as part of the discussions about the holocaust and that is disgusting? And what good reason is there for the forgetting to even happen? My casual observation is that the only people who bring the discussion about the Romany up in popular discourse is leftists, which makes you wonder why does that discussion get forgotten about otherwise? Is it because we’re not meant to be sympathetic as a result of the culture we’re in - and what cultivates that culture?

Maybe he’s doing that publandlord thing?

Yossarian

I like Carr generally, but he clearly missed the mark there. Hopefully he makes a public apology and tries to put things right.

Shamefully, I’ve watched that special, and the issues with that joke didn’t even register with me at the time. Something for me to think about.

Talking about things to think about, catching up with this on Twitter, I came across this article which I thought made some really interesting points that I’d never really considered before:

https://unherd.com/2021/06/britains-most-offensive-comedian/

Rev wrote:

Also including he feels so superior to us tax paying minions..

FWIW, he has talked about this since and it sounds like he does now just keep things simple and pay what he owes.

GooberTheHat

Maybe. We are generally selective in our outrage. I don't know why and I'm not pointing any fingers, but why do so many people around the world get up in arms about the murder of a black man by the police in America, but say relatively little about the mass incarceration/potential genocide of an entire enthnic group in China?

b0r1s

Kow wrote:

I'm not sure pretending to be a racist is much worse than pretending to be a paedophile, which he also does. I do find him occasionally funny, though.

When I went to see him it was during all the Jimmy Saville stuff and he did some terrible jokes about it and ended with a joke along the lines of liking to get kids in the terminal ward cos they couldn’t grass him up and the whole audience was just shocked. A few cackles from the back, but he immediately followed it up with “and this is what Saville actually used to to”. It was a fair joke in the context of immediately making it clear this was how evil Saville was.

Just punching down to bash victims of genocide shows someone who has lost the core of why they do what they do and probably just shows that lack of care that many older people seem to suffer from.

Kow

Some groups have marketed their repression better maybe.

Yossarian

I still feel like not getting upset or outraged about tragedies around the planet is necessary for us to function in our modern world. There’s simply too much pain and suffering going on that we can learn about and which can affect our moods. We aren’t built for that, we’re built to have empathy with those in small groups around us, not billions of people around the world. If it all got to us, we couldn’t function.

Those things that happen within our culture, or within cultures that we know and feel close to are likely to punch through those defences. I don’t think that’s hypocritical, I think it’s just natural.

GooberTheHat

Kow wrote:

Some groups have marketed their repression better maybe.

In a round about way you're probably right. We (the west generally speaking) are so aware of American culture, and it's so ingrained in ours, that outrages their resonate here.

equinox_code

Yossarian wrote:

I like Carr generally, but he clearly missed the mark there. Hopefully he makes a public apology and tries to put things right.

Perhaps it's just me, but I'd rather not have the apology?

Reading the jokes I can see why people would be offended, and they don't even seem remotely funny. That said, if he (or someone else) absolutely nailed the delivery, I can't be 100% sure it wouldn't provoke a chuckle from me. comedy can be like that.

poprock

Victoria Coren has been defending Carr on Twitter. That’s a shame, I liked her.

Funkstain

I’m kinda with crayon on this. Or rather what crayon said made me think about it more. I have been selective in my outrage, I haven’t watched the special - Yoss, is there a chance the joke was supposed to work in a “but what about the gypsies eh? No one cares about them, no wants them in their countries, so I guess it was a net positive that they were almost wiped out - LOOK AT YOURSELVES hypocrites” kind of way (knowing Carr, with a bit of “yeah but it’s true though gypsies suck don’t they” cakeism)

MattyJ

I actually saw this set live, a few months ago. After the gig in the car on the way home, me and the wife said to eachother we weren't sure how we felt about a lot of it. He knows exactly what he is doing, and even calls that section of the show 'career enders'.

MattyJ

Funkstain wrote:

I’m kinda with crayon on this. Or rather what crayon said made me think about it more. I have been selective in my outrage, I haven’t watched the special - Yoss, is there a chance the joke was supposed to work in a “but what about the gypsies eh? No one cares about them, no wants them in their countries, so I guess it was a net positive that they were almost wiped out - LOOK AT YOURSELVES hypocrites” kind of way (knowing Carr, with a bit of “yeah but it’s true though gypsies suck don’t they” cakeism

Kind of, yeah. He makes a deliberate point to say the thing itself is not the joke about the thing. I think this is the only race orientated joke he did... Certainly nothing about black people, Asian people or anything like that.

JonB

mistercrayon wrote:

Do you think it’s giving him too much credit to observe that we do conveniently (and generally) forget about portions of tragedies when they are inconvenient to our narratives. He’s not wrong to point out it’s almost always an after thought as part of the discussions about the holocaust and that is disgusting? And what good reason is there for the forgetting to even happen? My casual observation is that the only people who bring the discussion about the Romany up in popular discourse is leftists, which makes you wonder why does that discussion get forgotten about otherwise? Is it because we’re not meant to be sympathetic as a result of the culture we’re in - and what cultivates that culture? Maybe he’s doing that publandlord thing?

But if you really wanted to be edgy and make that point you could I guess make the joke at the expense of the Jews. Would he dare?

Gremill

Yossarian wrote:

For whatever it’s worth Davy, I appreciate how you engage with these sorts of topics. I find that you tend to do so respectfully and with an open mind. I think everyone on this forum is cognisant of the fact that we’re all products of the time and place and circumstances of our birth, and that the best we can hope for is that people are willing to genuinely listen to and engage with other points of view. I feel like that’s true of you, so fair play.

Thirded. The very fact that a person of your generation is able to have these conversation, reflect on your long held opinions and often have your mind changed publically is very admirable - particularly at a time in our culture when it is often the default to dig your heels in.

Yossarian

Funkstain wrote:

I’m kinda with crayon on this. Or rather what crayon said made me think about it more. I have been selective in my outrage, I haven’t watched the special - Yoss, is there a chance the joke was supposed to work in a “but what about the gypsies eh? No one cares about them, no wants them in their countries, so I guess it was a net positive that they were almost wiped out - LOOK AT YOURSELVES hypocrites” kind of way (knowing Carr, with a bit of “yeah but it’s true though gypsies suck don’t they” cakeism)

No, not really. He goes on to say something about how not many people know that Gypsies were also targeted by the nazis therefore the joke was educational (IIRC), but I’m not sure that really works as a defence.

Kow

Gypsies are too busy out stealing stuff so they'll never hear the joke anyway.

Kow

EDGY!

poprock

Not finding the guy funny makes it easy for me to believe that he’s a shit.

GooberTheHat

JonB wrote:

mistercrayon wrote:

Do you think it’s giving him too much credit to observe that we do conveniently (and generally) forget about portions of tragedies when they are inconvenient to our narratives. He’s not wrong to point out it’s almost always an after thought as part of the discussions about the holocaust and that is disgusting? And what good reason is there for the forgetting to even happen? My casual observation is that the only people who bring the discussion about the Romany up in popular discourse is leftists, which makes you wonder why does that discussion get forgotten about otherwise? Is it because we’re not meant to be sympathetic as a result of the culture we’re in - and what cultivates that culture? Maybe he’s doing that publandlord thing?

But if you really wanted to be edgy and make that point you could I guess make the joke at the expense of the Jews. Would he dare?

I'm not sure how you could.

mistercrayon

JonB wrote:

mistercrayon wrote:

Do you think it’s giving him too much credit to observe that we do conveniently (and generally) forget about portions of tragedies when they are inconvenient to our narratives. He’s not wrong to point out it’s almost always an after thought as part of the discussions about the holocaust and that is disgusting? And what good reason is there for the forgetting to even happen? My casual observation is that the only people who bring the discussion about the Romany up in popular discourse is leftists, which makes you wonder why does that discussion get forgotten about otherwise? Is it because we’re not meant to be sympathetic as a result of the culture we’re in - and what cultivates that culture? Maybe he’s doing that publandlord thing?

But if you really wanted to be edgy and make that point you could I guess make the joke at the expense of the Jews. Would he dare?

One caveat- I haven’t seen it. But I don’t think it’s just reaching for edginess - I think he could have said gays perhaps. I think you can pick out of a hat the minority groups if the only aim is edginess but it’s the one group that sort of creates a black mirror in front of Britain (and perhaps Europe?).

Like I say maybe more credit than is due.

Yossarian

Here’s that section of the special:

Kow

I wonder how many people are actually angry.

davyK

Like all comedians on TV, we see far too much of them now. I think it forces them to differentiate and some head down the road of Carr.

davyK

Gremill wrote:

For whatever it’s worth Davy, I appreciate how you engage with these sorts of topics. I find that you tend to do so respectfully and with an open mind. I think everyone on this forum is cognisant of the fact that we’re all products of the time and place and circumstances of our birth, and that the best we can hope for is that people are willing to genuinely listen to and engage with other points of view. I feel like that’s true of you, so fair play.

Thirded. The very fact that a person of your generation is able to have these conversation, reflect on your long held opinions and often have your mind changed publically is very admirable - particularly at a time in our culture when it is often the default to dig your heels in.

You are all very kind to me. I've always had an open mind. Probably my curious nature. I don't ever like to think that anything is finally figured out.

Kow

Ah now Davy, you're a bit of an oul bollix.

GurtTractor

Yossarian wrote:

Here’s that section of the special:

I fucking love how that thumbnail is exactly the impression Stewart Lee does at the end of this -

RedDave2

Kow wrote:

Gypsies are too busy out stealing stuff so they'll never hear the joke anyway.

This is literally the same joke mechanic.

I think this is hard to call to be honest. Tommy Tiernan made a similar type of joke about the Irish famine but I think it worked better because (a) he is Irish and (b) in general Ireland and the Irish are in a much better place than they were in the famine. Hard to say the same about gypsy culture in Europe. Still very much persecuted.

Taken on its own, its an awful joke but I honestly believe that Carr isn't using it as a joke about gypsy's or laughing at their misery, it's a joke based on shocking people. That doesn't make it nice or justified or that he should not have thought a bit more about whether the should do it, but I think that's his usual aim.

One issue I think worth bearing in mind is this joke makes it past netflix screeners, reviewers censors and multiple audiences where it was tested. It ties into the issue of why we feel outrage on some things over another. I think scale is an issue but also is the group approach. Its the same reason why a hit song can move beyond its genres usual fan base or why so many people who normally wouldn't give a toss about fantasy were gripped by game of thrones. Once a lot of noise is made about something, it grabs our attention and we react.

As an example, Live aid wasn't the turning point where the west actually started helping famine struck countries. It was a moment that engulfed the world thanks to people being captivated by it. That's not necessarily a bad thing and I'm sure it lead to many improvements but given how many watched it on TV or went to one of the gigs or gave money, I'm guessing a huge proportion went back to their daily lives the next week until the next big thing happened.

tigersgogrrr

I watched the special ages ago and that joke barely registered. It's in a section full of Those Jokes, and he clearly makes it known he's on very thin ice with it all.

Kow

I think for most people it's just not a very good joke and that's about it.

davyK

Kow wrote:

Ah now Davy, you're a bit of an oul bollix.

very much so.

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