equinox_code wrote:

I'm not sure I follow. Your what might have happened is simply what did happen, but spun in a way that appears to try and leverage space in the debate for people to empathise with officers' stress

There's conjecture here in Andy's interpretation, I'd agree. But (again, unconscious bias), I'm tempted to believe that they were trying to follow a process, did it badly, and then lost themselves.

What I also have to accept, is that if I'm willing to believe that in this case, then that can definitely form a component (again) of 'some' other cases.

But any police officer found in that situation should be tried for, and very rarely should they get away with, at the very least, manslaughter.

...

I should add, that's for Andy himself to answer, but as I did agree with him (up to a point), I wanted to address your query, from my point of view.

Rather than insults, what are your thoughts?

dynamiteReady wrote:

Rather than insults, what are your thoughts?

that wasn't aimed at you, but anyway I don't have much to add. It's just dicks being cunts, as usual.

Couple of thoughts that entered my mind reading about this.

1. Anytime I've been going to America (and for all its faults, theres a lot of good people and places there) I cant remember a time I've been told to watch out for crime but on numerous occasions I've been told to be careful around the Police in the states (both by Irish people and Americans). One of the most common warnings is that if you are driving in the states do not overtake a police car. There's an odd (well, to me anyway) mentality in the states that the Police are an absolute tyranical force for most people to deal with. Some more than others but everyone seems at risk of the righteous hand of the law going on a power trip. And while Black people do seem to suffer more, there are plenty of videos of white people also getting this form of treatment from the police force. 

2. Whatever about the above, its amazing how fast the cops details have been released and action has been taken. Cant help but feel that in this part of it all, colour has played a part.

3. So we all know that when a militant Muslim terrorist does something there is much hand wringing in the media that the Muslim community needs to say something as a whole. Somehow, I dont feel the entire Police community in the States will take the same approach. While some will (and should be applauded as they are taking on a risk) I have a feeling the unions and many of the rank and file will close around those responsible, not because they believe they are defensible but because they are cops.

Horrible situation. If a gang of teens did this, people would be crying what a lost generation, the horrors of modern youth etc. Just cant imagine how out of my head I would need to be to be part of this mob.

Trying cover the points I notice in your reply. I may miss some. But:

DrewMerson wrote:

@dynamiteReady There’s a lot to respond to in your post, I agree with some of it, but not all of it. I’m also unsure how much of it is intended as commentary on just the Police in the USA, and how much of it is also about UK police.

It would be a stretch to say that the same problems exist in both the US and the UK, but there are some similarities. From Duggan, to Kaba, to that athlete who was stopped, and expected to leave her vehicle and her 3 month old child behind.

Of course the police have to do their job. Of course I know they have standards. But why those standards appear to slip so drastically, when the service is found to engage some people, is the central challenge many want to make.

The numbers aren't exactly the same, neither the outcomes (there are obviously fewer shootings here), but the trend is definitely similar. There are a much large number of procedural mistakes on the part of the police, in interactions between the service, and citizens from certain communities.

DrewMerson wrote:

I think Police pay is an issue. As the pay has gone down in real terms, so has the standard of applicant, and then the standard required to join has to drop to meet the numbers required.

I think it's an idea worth exploring. And I think it should absolutely be linked to this:

DrewMerson wrote:

I would never advocate putting officers on the street without handcuffs and a baton, that way danger lies.

There are many different things that can be done to stop crime. Not every officer should have the agency to detain people on a hunch (which sometimes appears to happen). Equipment like handcuffs, aren't just symbols of that responsibility, but they are the tools that, in part, enable that. I think that the idea of qualified use of even basic equipment, is a reasonable idea to explore.

I also appreciate your idea of elementary safety.

The only alternative I see there, I hinted at. If you have street team leaders of an exceedingly high calibre (apparently, the UK police advertised some initiative to attract graduates to start as detectives. A potential source), and smaller teams, where those leads can account for case by case deployment. If they were also paid a good, life changing wage, it's a hunch but I would guess a scheme like that would change a lot, almost overnight.

Negotiators and psychologists, for example.

Because the truth in this case, is that Tyre stopped, which is a fact that is bound to stick in a lot of minds.

Further more, in the case of Chris Kaba, despite the lack of detail, lets assume, for this thought exercise, that he resisted arrest, and his car was rammed off the road (some reports suggest this). In the UK, like you say, the firearm officers are highly trained, and shootings are very rare here anyway.

So why exactly was Chris Kaba shot dead, while unarmed?

There was one of him (in an immobilised car), and I would guess at least 4 officers. They could have just surrounded the car, and waited whole day with a negotiator, as they did with Raoul Moat. Where Raoul (a white male just shy of middle age) most certainly was a danger to himself, and the public.

But that motherfucker still appeared to have a chance to eat the sandwich the negotiator offered him, before he calmly shot himself.
And even after that, iirc three - four officers had to stand before the IOPC for that (though I think they were all acquitted).

Also, that was up in Newcastle, and not London, where the Met is most certainly overstretched, but I'm also sure is much better resourced than the Teeside force.

Despite offering a bit of detail, these are still just thoughts. Neither a detailed diagnosis, or a prescription. I'm just thinking around some of the ideas in your post.

Pity, I enjoyed his strips even though I've never worked in an office in my life.

Yeah, some comment that somebody interpreted as racist is one thing, but he's gone full mental.

What a shock... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/feb/27/elon-musk-backs-dilbert-cartoonist-scott-adams-racist-controversy?CMP=fb_a-technology_b-gdntech

Yes. It's the reason Trump was banging on about Obama's birth cert all the time.

But just calling him a twat doesn't help. Racist people are mentally unwell. Paranoid, irrational and delusional. It's obvs as fucked as it is widespread. 

I don't know what's to be done in this internet age of hate but I'm all for practical solutions. I suspect those solutions start from a perspective of sympathy although I agree that's a difficult stance to take.

It’s not the internet’s fault that the richest man in the world is an adolescent thirst trap who believes his own bullshit hype

I don’t think we live in an age of hate, it’s just that the internet amplifies everything, good and bad. And bad gets more eyeballs and sells more adverts

We need to train our children to see past the facile, surface-level ‘social’ web and treat like a really fucking big issue of Heat printed by the SS, and look for the gold which is still there

I remember reading about that a while back - I still dont get the sense of under valuing the property. 

I might be misunderstanding it but what is the benefit for the valuer to undervalue the property?