Western democracies are doing enough to destabilise themselves that it must be a bit of a turkey shoot for the Russians.

The Catalan government.

Very far behind. Unless the Russians were behind Franco too.

I don't doubt the Russian's cyber ability at stirring shit in existing conflicts. How involved they are though is hard to tell at the moment.

And they fixed Strictly.

I'm just messing. I find the whole thing baffling so it's easier to just poke fun at it all.

There are dumb conspiracy theories (like the one workid posted) and then there's stuff like the Mueller investigation that makes one go hmmm....

Like it or not, misinformation, cyber warfare and fake news campaigns are a reality and the Russians are not the only ones doing it. It's a standard information warfare tool by now and as one can observe it:s effects are....fucked up to say the least.

My guess is the Russians will try to gain the upper hand wherever they can whatever the means. And they're willing to go very far when looking at the Mueller investigation.

Not saying they're behind the attacks in Syria.
Just that the Russians aren't angels when it comes to cyber and information warfare tactics.

I'll have you know there's clear evidence that Alexandra and Gorka should have won but Russia interfered with the phone lines.

Yossarian wrote:

acemuzzy wrote:

You ok, @yossarian? Bringing trouble with ya? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43873804

Yep, all good. Am in Niagara looking at falls.

Came in here to check.  Good to know.

Remember when we used to just have propaganda?


People STILL think carrots are good for your eyesight.

I know you were taking the piss out of me Gonzo (and that's fine, I probably deserved it) , but there is actually a methodology for identifying propaganda outlets. I wasn't saying Max Blumenthal was one, but he hit enough triggers to make me suspicious. It would be interesting to see how many of these he tests positive against.

1) ​Check to see whether the social-media account/commenter/outlet consistently cites obvious Russian propaganda outlets such as Russia Today/rt.com, the Russian defense ministry, and other official Russian spokespeople.

2) Check to see whether the social-media account/commenter/outlet has a history of reusing text directly from obvious Russian propaganda outlets, especially without attribution.

3) Check to see whether the social-media account/commenter/outlet has a history of generally echoing the Russian propaganda "line" by using themes, arguments, talking points, images, and other content similar to those used by obvious Russian propaganda outlets. These themes include:

● How wonderful, powerful, innocent, and righteous Russia and Russia's friends are: Putin, Donald Trump, Bashar al-Assad, Syria, Iran, China, radical political parties in the US and Europe, etc. Investigate this by searching for mentions of, for example, "russia", on their site by Googling for "site:whateversite.com russia", and seeing what comes up.

● How terrible, weak, aggressive, and corrupt the the opponents of Russia and their friends are: The US, Obama, Hillary Clinton, the EU, Angela Merkel, NATO, Ukraine, Jewish people, US allies, the "mainstream media", and democrats, the center-right or center-left, and moderates of all stripes. Investigate this by searching for mentions of, for example, "NATO", on their site by Googling for "site:whateversite.com NATO" and seeing what comes up.

● An obvious bias towards Russia and Russian-backed policy in foreign affairs, including:
○ How fantastic Brexit and Ukrainian/Georgian separatism is, but how terrible Chechen separatists are,
○ How advanced Russian technology is, and how dangerous Western technology is,
○ How great it is when Western secrets get exposed, but how terrible it is when Russian ones do,
○ How militarily powerful Russia and their friends are, and how weak and craven Russia's enemies and their friends are, etc.

● How dangerous standing up to Russia would be: It would inevitably result in "World War 3", nuclear devastation, etc, and regardless of who shot first or is bombing civilians where now, would be the West's fault. Russian propaganda never suggests it would just result in a Cold War 2 and Russia's eventual peaceful defeat, like the last time.

● Pre-emptive discouragement of critical analysis: Assertions about them "having the truth", or the need to "wake up the sheeple", or how the "mainstream media" can't be trusted.

● Hyperbolic alarmism, anti-Western conspiracist insinuations, "Eurasianism", racism, gold-standard nuttery and attacks on the US dollar, 9/11-trutherism, anti-Semitism, anti-"globalism", anti-vax/anti-GMO paranoia, and generally ridiculous over-the-top assertions, which cites Russian propaganda outlets as "evidence".

4) Check to see whether the social-media account/commenter/outlet has a history of echoing the Russian propaganda "line" in weird ways:

● Do they have propaganda-like content that mentions Russia in a positive light for no clear reason?

● Do they have propaganda-like content that randomly extols Russia and belittles the US?

● Do they have propaganda-like content unrelated to the purported focus of their branding?

● Does the timing of their propaganda-like content coincide with or closely follow similar content on known Russian propaganda outlets?

5) Check to see whether the social-media account/commenter/outlet lacks the hallmarks of good actual journalism: Are the stories factual? Are the facts placed in appropriate context? Do the headlines match the content? Are the agendas of the sources clearly disclosed? Are there good explanations? Does it bring clarity to complicated issues? Is there an absence of hype?

6) Check to see whether the social-media account/commenter/outlet has been called out by other fact-checkers, journalists, debunkers, etc, already.

7) Check to see whether the social-media account/commenter/outlet steadfastly avoids coherently proposing constructive solutions to anything. The point of propaganda isn't just to get people worked up--it's also to create a sense of decision paralysis, and fear of a complex and seemingly frightening world.

davyK wrote:

How dangerous standing up to Russia would be: It would inevitably result in "World War 3", nuclear devastation, etc, and regardless of who shot first or is bombing civilians where now, would be the West's fault. Russian propaganda never suggests it would just result in a Cold War 2 and Russia's eventual peaceful defeat, like the last time.

Would it really matter whose fault it was?

The Soviet Union wasn't beaten - it imploded and was nowhere near the threat that Western leaders would have had us believe. Yes - the threat of nuclear conflict was in the air but the West was the great threat.

Our so-called leaders always want there to be a bad guy for us to be afraid of. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, there have been a few stand-ins such as Hussein, Bin Laden, Taliban, ISIS etc - but those warm up acts have left the stage.

No, but the point is a Russian propaganda outlet wouldn't remind its audience of that fact. It doesn't fit the script.

It is poorly worded though.

JCT: Hey Corbs you gonna do something about this anti-Semitism?
Corby Baby: Do we even have any proof that Ken Livingston exists?

I'm hoping that's why they were pissed off with him, they said don't call the actions of Likud and pals into question and he said get tae.

Roujin wrote:

I don't want to wade into a thing but fuck people who think being anti Israel's shitty treatment of Palestine makes you an anti semite.

As far as I can tell that appears to be the problem, people talking shit about Israel from the left getting called antisemetic by pro Israel people and Zionists who can't separate criticism of state behaviour from the right to a homeland for some fucking reason and then anyone on the right/centre/left who doesn't like labour or JC using it as a shitty political tool.

Shit sandwiches all round.

P.s. let me declare my bias by saying fuck the treatment of Palestinians by Israel. Please note that criticism of Israeli state behaviour does not therefore equal tacit approval of Palestinian state behaviour. Fuck all this, I hate the West, we fucked everything up so badly for erryone.

I’ve read far too much about this from left-wing, Labour-supporting, non-Zionist, Jewish figures that I generally have time for to be able to dismiss the whole situation quite so easily. David Baddiel’s piece for the Times which I can’t be arsed to dig out a non-paywalled version of now was pretty good on the situation, IMO.