The Last Guardian and all things Ueda pasty present and future - The Bear and Badger

JonB

I've tried the barrel thing a number of times though. Stand too close and it won't catch the barrel. Try from a bit further away and it will. As I see it, there's not enough time for it to react if you're too close. It makes sense.

You can see it how you like, but I was just saying that was something I thought was really nicely done, whereas others saw it as a fault.

cockbeard

I still haven't played, but did anyone here legitimately encounter a game breaking glitch

As in you had to go back to an earlier save because progress was impossible

Vela

Frantic pea did from memory.

tin_robot

cockbeard wrote:

I still haven't played, but did anyone here legitimately encounter a game breaking glitch As in you had to go back to an earlier save because progress was impossible

A couple of people did. I had one where Trico fell asleep on top of me, and no amount of flailing, button mashing or patience would make him move. It would have been incredibly annoying had it not also been so damn adorable...

Paul the sparky

JonB wrote:

Bit sensitive?

I've tried it an number of times though. Stand too close and it won't catch the barrel. Try from a bit further away and it will. As I see it, there's not enough time for it to react if you're too close. It makes sense.

You can see it how you like, but I was just saying that was something I thought was really nicely done, whereas others saw it as a fault.

User error again. It doesn't wash with me. Standing three inches closer than the arbitrary and invisible line the game has drawn shouldn't see it fail. Imagine not being able to enter your Titan from above/behind/while wall running/sliding in Titanfall? That would be crap, and the developers realising that have made animations for just those scenarios to ensure it doesn't fail.

Even if you miss, he doesn't react to it as it hits his face, nor does he pick it up off the floor. As the sole function of the barrels within the game is to get them into Trico's gob, you'd have thought they'd have made more of an effort with them. What you're saying is that there's a radius around Trico where if you're in it, not too close or far away, then he'll catch the barrel. How about if you're too close you under arm it into his gob? Or hold it out for him and he takes it from you? And if you're too far away, he steps into it and catches it before it hits the deck? Or it bounces and rolls and he scoops it up? Let's go mental, and you stand too close and throw the barrel away from him, only for him to bound after it and gobble it up? You know, have Trico actually behave like an animal and react to things in a natural way instead of sitting there like the confused and wonky jumble of AI, animation and collision detection which it so clearly is.

As far as glitches, I had his tail get snagged on something instead of dropping down while I was in the pool with the crate. Waited for ages for him to move but as he was in the right spot all that happened was a couple of repeated lines of narration telling me that I'd climbed out. A reload sorted it, but Franny wasn't so lucky as the game had saved with Trico's head stuck in a chain, meaning he had to start the game from scratch. Fuck that, quite frankly.

stonechalice

I had to reload twice. Once because of his tail like sparky and once where he just wouldn't jump where he was supposed to, no matter what. On reload, he went straight there, the fuckpig.

Kow

I had Trico get his tail stuck in scenery a few times. Once it stayed stuck in a gate even though the gate had been opened.

JonB

Paul the sparky wrote:

Even if you miss, he doesn't react to it as it hits his face, nor does he pick it up off the floor. As the sole function of the barrels within the game is to get them into Trico's gob, you'd have thought they'd have made more of an effort with them. What you're saying is that there's a radius around Trico where if you're in it, not too close or far away, then he'll catch the barrel. How about if you're too close you under arm it into his gob? Or hold it out for him and he takes it from you? And if you're too far away, he steps into it and catches it before it hits the deck? Or it bounces and rolls and he scoops it up? Let's go mental, and you stand too close and throw the barrel away from him, only for him to bound after it and gobble it up? You know, have Trico actually behave like an animal and react to things in a natural way instead of sitting there like the confused and wonky jumble of AI, animation and collision detection which it so clearly is.

But where's the fun in all that? I pick up a barrel, press the chuck it button somewhere near Trico, and it eats the barrel. I don't see it as that simple means to an end interaction, because that's not (IMO) what the game is about. Rather, it's about how these two hugely different creatures learn to interact with each other, sometimes by making mistakes. The feeding process that develops is a microcosm of that, including learning this game of throw and catch and how well Trico can respond. Bonking it on the nose with a barrel and having it stare at you like 'What the fuck, mate?' is a great moment (for me). So then you try it slightly differently and eventually you both get better at it. Likewise, helping it out by nudging a barrel into place, because it can't get that big beak round it, and then finally that moment where it's trusting enough to just snatch the barrel right from your hand. I love all that, and to me it seems quite intentional because it's so core to the experience.

JonB

I mean, it's shit that things go wrong in the game, and I get that those things undermine confidence in other aspects because you can't then be sure what's there by design and what's not.

But it's still a shame that so much discussion centres on the time the tail got stuck rather than some of the really quite wonderful details that elevate this game beyond its mechanics.

Kow

I've said it before but like things like that don't bother me. The problem is the game is dull.

monkey

Kow wrote:

I've said it before but like things like that don't bother me. The problem is the game is dull.

Did you like journey?

cindemon

JonB wrote:

The feeding process that develops is a microcosm of that, including learning this game of throw and catch and how well Trico can respond. Bonking it on the nose with a barrel and having it stare at you like 'What the fuck, mate?' is a great moment (for me). So then you try it slightly differently and eventually you both get better at it. Likewise, helping it out by nudging a barrel into place, because it can't get that big beak round it, and then finally that moment where it's trusting enough to just snatch the barrel right from your hand. I love all that, and to me it seems quite intentional because it's so core to the experience.

Spot on.

Kow

monkey wrote:

Kow wrote:

I've said it before but like things like that don't bother me. The problem is the game is dull.

Did you like journey?

Loved it.

monkey

It's a stupid question really. It's just that, Journey's dull as a game. It's strengths lie elsewhere, just like this.

Paul the sparky

JonB wrote:

Paul the sparky wrote:

Even if you miss, he doesn't react to it as it hits his face, nor does he pick it up off the floor. As the sole function of the barrels within the game is to get them into Trico's gob, you'd have thought they'd have made more of an effort with them. What you're saying is that there's a radius around Trico where if you're in it, not too close or far away, then he'll catch the barrel. How about if you're too close you under arm it into his gob? Or hold it out for him and he takes it from you? And if you're too far away, he steps into it and catches it before it hits the deck? Or it bounces and rolls and he scoops it up? Let's go mental, and you stand too close and throw the barrel away from him, only for him to bound after it and gobble it up? You know, have Trico actually behave like an animal and react to things in a natural way instead of sitting there like the confused and wonky jumble of AI, animation and collision detection which it so clearly is.

But where's the fun in all that? I pick up a barrel, press the chuck it button somewhere near Trico, and it eats the barrel. I don't see it as that simple means to an end interaction, because that's not (IMO) what the game is about. Rather, it's about how these two hugely different creatures learn to interact with each other, sometimes by making mistakes. The feeding process that develops is a microcosm of that, including learning this game of throw and catch and how well Trico can respond. Bonking it on the nose with a barrel and having it stare at you like 'What the fuck, mate?' is a great moment (for me). So then you try it slightly differently and eventually you both get better at it. Likewise, helping it out by nudging a barrel into place, because it can't get that big beak round it, and then finally that moment where it's trusting enough to just snatch the barrel right from your hand. I love all that, and to me it seems quite intentional because it's so core to the experience.

The fun in it is as a reward for finding the barrel you get an animation of Trico enjoying his treat. I don't see how pixel shuffling trial and error is a better way to do it, as when it fails it breaks the immersion and my belief that the thing I'm throwing a barrel to is a living breathing entity and not just a bundle of code with a few limited animations which can't cope with such simple situation. A barrel is on the floor, are you really saying that if it wasn't for me moving it a couple of feet Trico would starve to death? And that's a good thing?

For me, the act of getting the barrel is the challenge, and as Trico physically can't get it for himself I'll gladly climb ledges, crawl through holes and whatever else is required to get it for him and be rewarded with an animation of him wolfing it down when I get it within his reach. Great stuff. Not this jarring, illusion shattering blue screen of death error message I see when I toss a barrel at him.

On the trust thing, I'd gained his trust within the first 15 minutes. I don't put this down to a lack of or building of trust between us, as it happens towards the end of the game too.

Kow

monkey wrote:

It's a stupid question really. It's just that, Journey's dull as a game. It's strengths lie elsewhere, just like this.

I didn't find Journey dull at all. I don't think dull is a reflection of how much there is to do, or variety. Rather it's how the game is made. Whatever they did with TLG, my feeling was continually to turn it off and come back to it later.

JonB

@Paul

Ah well. I liked it they way they did it.

Paul the sparky

Fair enough.

JMW

Can't say I'm enjoying the 'getting the barrel' parts at all. And they, and other bits, are like trying to platform with your character from Red Dead Redemption MP. But it is fantastic when it does come together, and that's enough to keep me coming back. Not as good as SotC though, no way.

Paul the sparky

Having read the thread, you do understand where I'm coming from with this Jon? I think enjoyment of the game hinges on the belief that Trico is an animal and companion, and anything that breaks that belief massively undermines the game.

It's not just getting hung up on wonky mechanics, it's that when those mechanics fail everything else is brought down with them.

Paul the sparky

JMW wrote:

Can't say I'm enjoying the 'getting the barrel' parts at all. And they, and other bits, are like trying to platform with your character from Red Dead Redemption MP. But it is fantastic when it does come together, and that's enough to keep me coming back. Not as good as SotC though, no way.

SotC is one if my all time favourites, and although they're very different games, this doesn't come close. Breath of the Wild might though, fingers crossed.

hylian_elf

SotC was alright. A couple of the colossi were rubbish and be annoying which ruined it. Some of the wandering around was also dull.

Kow

I think part of that for me is that SotC would probably be dull if it came out now. At the time it was a revelation. TLG feels like a game that should have come out then, and would have been a revelation. But its time has passed.

JonB

Paul the sparky wrote:

Having read the thread, you do understand where I'm coming from with this Jon? I think enjoyment of the game hinges on the belief that Trico is an animal and companion, and anything that breaks that belief massively undermines the game. It's not just getting hung up on wonky mechanics, it's that when those mechanics fail everything else is brought down with them.

Yeah, I think that was kind of my point. There are clear issues that everyone notices, and then other bits which seem to have been interpreted very differently, to the point some people view something as immersion breaking and others see that same thing as heightening immersion.

It's interesting. It's certainly a game that asks us to put a lot of faith in it and then sometimes lets us fall (literally), but 95% of the time I felt able to just go with it, for whatever reason, while others didn't. You can see the difference in something like the way people react if Trico accidentally kicks them off a platform into the abyss. For me this was funny and seemed consistent with the clumsy relationship, for others it would be annoying. Why some go one way and others the other I don't know.

So, IMO, what seems like making excuses for a game's faults isn't that simple here. It's a strange game where the frustrations and failures are intertwined with the point of the game so completely that they can even add to it (not the camera - that's just not very good). If we deconstruct it mechanically I think we lose the point, and it's very hard to separate some of the problems from some of the highlights.

It's probably obvious I'm making this up as I go along, but I guess these were just the feelings I hadn't put into clear thoughts yet (I had no intention of writing this much). It's fascinating to me though, and I had a sense of it when struggling to decide where to put it in my top 100. It's both quite far behind my favourite games in pure gameplay terms and yet well ahead of any of them as an overall experience, so what to do? (I put it just outside the top 10.)

Also, I thought the thing about chucking barrels at Trico's face from the right distance might be something you found mildly interesting, in that, whether or not it's good design, it does appear to be (I'm not 100% sure) intentional, rather than random or completely unpredictable.

FranticPea

cockbeard wrote:

I still haven't played, but did anyone here legitimately encounter a game breaking glitch

As in you had to go back to an earlier save because progress was impossible

Yep, as stated on the last page. Had to lose progress on two separate occasions.

Alot of games I can look past it, but

Kow wrote:

The problem is the game is dull.

Lord_Griff

Got to the part involving under water shenanigans about a month ago and have not picked it up since. Was enjoying it but clearly it is not compelling me to complete. I think the handling and camera is a barrier to entry that is enough to stop me loading it up.

JonB

Just spent far too long trying to do this:

Spoiler:

Think I've got all the barrels this time, but probably find out I missed one somewhere.

Lord_Griff

Actually that is the bit I am on.

JonB

The helmet is optional, fortunately, and probably more trouble than it's worth.

cindemon

I used to load 3 or 4 at a time to increase my odds. Great until after a fair few attempts, Trico 'knowing' what I needed of him by now, started taking the piss and smashing it down at the earliest opportunity before I could finish loading up my extra chances as it were. There was a smile, gritted teeth & few cuss words also, but the bugger still had me smiling.

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