Moot_Geeza wrote:

Part of Escape's post reminds me of one of those full page true stories they used to print in FHM, from around fifteen years ago. This guy had pretty much got to the end credits on jujitsu, or a similar disclipline, got in a spot of bother outside a pub, and got annihilated by a regular triple-ripple neck guy who windmilled his way to victory. An ambulance was needed, plus an overnight stay courtesy of the NHS. Dunno if it was true or not, they may have given a prize for the stories they printed. Sounds pretty plausible. They only other one I can remember is someone claiming it was them what done a poo in the Blue Peter garden.

Aye, when I was a kid my ju jitsu instructor (black belt, 2nd dan I think) got beat up in a club - some randoms giving him evils, he stares em back, wife tells him to leave it, bit later on he gets grabbed from behind lifted and thrown to the floor busting his ankle, big guy sits on him and gets a lick to his face by which time my intructor's mate (assistant instructor at same club, first dan black belt) bundles the guy off.

Lack of situational awareness, attack from behind etc., but was an eye-opener for little skinny 16 year old me - both instructors burly builders, built like bulldogs, presumed authority figure double tough, and he comes hobbling in on crutches, foot in cast and black eye.

Problem with ju jitus as was/is taught by the federation I was in is that it's *all* about learning the moveset syllabus - kicks, blocks, lock and throws etc. - all the way up to black belt, and only when you get to black belt you actually learn how to put it together and how to fight with it, basically useless til then  
In fact, possibly worse than useless if you count the false sense of security of "woah, I know martial arts!".

Did wing chun at uni and found it much, much more practical - learn to hit, 2-man contact drills to learn contact sensitivity and train the muscle memory and reactions, mild sparring pretty much from the start. 
But at the end of the day, still not fighting, still not really learning to hit moving target properly, still not disciplined learning of how to avoid getting hit, or how to minimise when get hit - only picking it up by osmosis during sparring.
For that, boxing is still the purest form - maybe Muay Thai or any other sport-based combat where the emphasis is getting students into the ring and setting them against each other. The more time fighting, the better.

Yeah from what little I know, situational awareness to spot trouble coming, then ability to turn on a willingness to really fuck someone up count for a lot, otherwise you're on the back foot and only reacting, relying on training and instinct to protect yourself rather than any capacity for proactive taking control of the situation.

Think Like a Bouncer!

YOU FUCKING WHAT MATE?! I'LL FUCKING END YOU ahem sorry just practising.

cockbeard wrote:

Dunno if it still happens, but in terms of aggression, milling was real eye opener

Milling?



The last time anything happened that I couldn't avoid, I broke a knuckle with the only punch I threw.  I've got no experience with any martial arts but I'd imagine if I did, it wouldn't have stopped one of my own bones breaking from the impact of hitting something quite close to its intended target.  THEY CALLED ME MR. GLASS!

Is it basically boxing in short bursts of aggression?  Looks absolutely knackering.

djchump wrote:

Part of Escape's post reminds me of one of those full page true stories they used to print in FHM, from around fifteen years ago. This guy had pretty much got to the end credits on jujitsu, or a similar disclipline, got in a spot of bother outside a pub, and got annihilated by a regular triple-ripple neck guy who windmilled his way to victory. An ambulance was needed, plus an overnight stay courtesy of the NHS. Dunno if it was true or not, they may have given a prize for the stories they printed. Sounds pretty plausible. They only other one I can remember is someone claiming it was them what done a poo in the Blue Peter garden.

Aye, when I was a kid my ju jitsu instructor (black belt, 2nd dan I think) got beat up in a club - some randoms giving him evils, he stares em back, wife tells him to leave it, bit later on he gets grabbed from behind lifted and thrown to the floor busting his ankle, big guy sits on him and gets a lick to his face by which time my intructor's mate (assistant instructor at same club, first dan black belt) bundles the guy off. Lack of situational awareness, attack from behind etc., but was an eye-opener for little skinny 16 year old me - both instructors burly builders, built like bulldogs, presumed authority figure double tough, and he comes hobbling in on crutches, foot in cast and black eye. Problem with ju jitus as was/is taught by the federation I was in is that it's *all* about learning the moveset syllabus - kicks, blocks, lock and throws etc. - all the way up to black belt, and only when you get to black belt you actually learn how to put it together and how to fight with it, basically useless til then   In fact, possibly worse than useless if you count the false sense of security of "woah, I know martial arts!". Did wing chun at uni and found it much, much more practical - learn to hit, 2-man contact drills to learn contact sensitivity and train the muscle memory and reactions, mild sparring pretty much from the start.  But at the end of the day, still not fighting, still not really learning to hit moving target properly, still not disciplined learning of how to avoid getting hit, or how to minimise when get hit - only picking it up by osmosis during sparring. For that, boxing is still the purest form - maybe Muay Thai or any other sport-based combat where the emphasis is getting students into the ring and setting them against each other. The more time fighting, the better.

Fighting in the dojo vs streetfighting.
You have to be able to flip the switch inside your head otherwise you're gonna get pummeled.Groundfighting is a nono (that moveset is reserved as a last resort for stealth ninjas only and only in one on one situations), Instead limit your moves to quick punches, kicks and nasty bonecrunching holds. Much more effective when using a jujitsu moveset in the street. Keep an eye on your attackers and your environment as well.
Throws are possible but not recommended due to trickyness of execution. When all fails, running is also an option.

My default move set is kick to the balls and run away.

This hasn't been posted yet.  It was inevitable (NSFW).

Martial arts should always be a last resort, that's a given.

Jiu jitsu's moveset was developed to be able to fight back against armed and armored opponents even when unarmed. Holds are therefore the main focus, but one can fall back on punches, kicks, throws and takedowns as well.
Jiu jitsu's original moveset was designed to take an opponent down as quick as possible and with quick I mean anything goes. Eye gouges, ball crushing, throatjabbing, it's all in the arsenal. If you use certain moves and holds in the street, you can break someone's arm in the blink of an eye.

So yeah, restraint is necessary and avoid fights if possible. Except when someone tries to stab you.. It's on then.

Were you wearing pants or was it dangling free?

Sparring in martial arts teaches you almost nothing about how to fight outside of whatever system you are learning.

Case in point the arm bar. You can pop a shoulder, or break an elbow, or the other guy can stab you with his free hand or his mate can jump you.

It has no use. Most of the throws in judo if you landed cleanly on someone in a real fight would end them, full force of their momentum, your momentum and then the acceleration as you drive the throw through all goes through their upper back as it hits the floor. But guess what, that never happens because irl most people aren't wearing reinforced jackets that will resist the forces being applied, nor do they stand facing you with their arms up while you have 30 seconds of tentative grab attempts when a fight starts.

@rouj: Aye - it's why I figure boxing or any kind of combat sport where you get in a ring and try to belt 7 shades of shit out of each other as probably the best for self-defense, if learning self-defense is your priority.

I've been in a fight.
With 5 guys in a bus.
They were pummeling some poor sod (complete wih full blown kicks to the head) with his girlfriend next to him screaming for them to stop.


Jiu jitsu definitely works.
It also helps which assailant you decide to disable first. Group psychology thing.

Like I said, it's a mindset thing. You go in all out or you don't go in at all.
Also, you have to trust your sparring abiliy and muscle memory.

Roujin wrote:

Not even boxing can help!!!! Do they teach you how to fight rolling around on the floor after a guy just lunges at you and pulls you down? If you manage to get in a fight where the other guy wants to stand and trade blows, you can use your shit, but this almost never happens, most people fighting end up rolling on the floor or wedged up against a wall/side of a car, whatever, and there's no room to use any if your shit there, even if you are muay thai badman it won't be the same as being in the clinch so you aren't even going to get to smash his kidneys in your knees either. Seriously, I'm sorry most of you guys think that you will be handier than a random dude in a scrap because 'training'. Rugby players at least learn how to charge at someone and tackle them head first or from behind with the risk of getting booted in the head so they are probably at an advantage compared to your average McDojo dude.

eh? I haven't said anything of the sort, and even explicitly stated that I thought the jiu jitsu training I did as a kid was probably WORSE than useless, as it did exactly what you say (didn't train me how to defend myself properly) but gave me a false sense of security.

And what is with this attitude, with this need to shout down and mock what other people have learned because you think what you've learned is better? Given that Goobs is armed forces and cocko's background, I'm going to put far more credence in their level of experience with this kinda thing rather than yours, which seems to amount to some judo?

You need to read what people actually say, rather than rudely spinning your wheels at what you think people have said because you want to shout them down. Your point about rugby players is even in agreement with what I was saying - the more time and effort people put into training to both take and dish out punishment, the tougher they'll get.