The British Politics Thread - The Bear and Badger

LivDiv

It is truly bizarre.
We are having a Queen's speech the wrong side of an election.

The Queen has been made to look a right cunt, stood there effectively reading the Tory campaign manifesto.

kneecap

RedDave2 wrote:

davyK wrote:

NI in the zone is the only way really. But it will kick up a stink here politically.

Hopefully Sinn Fein will have the good sense to just shut up and stop droning on about a border poll for a while.

There isn't enough will for the United Ireland yet here in the south. I still think the North could really benefit as a halfway zone between eu/ UK. Hope that's the way it goes.

davyK wrote:

RedDave2 wrote:

NI in the zone is the only way really. But it will kick up a stink here politically. Hopefully Sinn Fein will have the good sense to just shut up and stop droning on about a border poll for a while.

There isn't enough will for the United Ireland yet here in the south. I still think the North could really benefit as a halfway zone between eu/ UK. Hope that's the way it goes.

I agree. And despite the 50/50 religious share here now, I'm not convinced a unite vote would be returned here mainly for economic/tax reasons.

It needs both votes to go that way as far as I know. And I doubt the South would want the hassle of taking us on any time soon. The day will come though.

The SF honeymoon period has definitely ended in the South too (not that it amounted to much anyhow). Higgins was giving them a kicking recently.

What are ye talking about, Ireland would absolutely vote to unify.

The only question is the soft "N" nationalists and the small "U" unionists in the north.

People don't vote based on economics.

If they did NI would vote to Unify with Ireland.
Most of Ireland would vote against it (border region and donegal would vote in favour.)
And Brexit.... Well come on.

People vote on emotions.

The only way I'd vote against a United Ireland is if too many consessions were made to appease a faction of loyalists who are unappeasable anyway.
I want a UI but not at the cost of the spirit of Ireland.

In other news the Brits are breaking the Good Friday Agreement in the Emma De Souza case.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ni-born-people-are-considered-british-until-they-renounce-citizenship-court-rules-1.4049810

How many ways is it now?

Diluted Dante

Hang on, so FIFA are doing more to honour the GFA than the British Government?

Diluted Dante

Of course there are a group of Labour cunts gagging to vote for any old shit Johnson puts in front of them.

RedDave2

@owmykneecap - what you've described isn't a unified Ireland, it's the Republic taking over Northern Ireland. Appeasement and concession would have to be made to the unionists to win them over. To do otherwise would invite decades of strife.

I'm also not so sure it's an automatic vote. There would be serious economic impact in the unification and while I'm sure the EU would help, the North is so heavily funded by the UK that it would be a huge ask.

I think brexit has been the exception to most voting - where ideology has overtaken economic sense. But don't forget that for a lot of people oting for brexit, they weren't reaping the windfall that others were from European membership. They weren't really giving anything up.

Don't get me wrong, I think near everyone in the Republic would like a unified Ireland but I don't think it's at any cost. There is still much work to be done.

Diluted Dante

It depends that you mean by that. A lot of leave areas were places the EU stepped in to help where the UK Gov abandoned them. But the EU got the blame for what the UK Gov had done. They have given up the only help they were getting. They just don't understand that they have done that.

RedDave2

Diluted Dante wrote:

It depends that you mean by that. A lot of leave areas were places the EU stepped in to help where the UK Gov abandoned them. But the EU got the blame for what the UK Gov had done. They have given up the only help they were getting. They just don't understand that they have done that.

Not doubting that at all, I just meant it was people who were already heavily disenfranchised and staying in would probably mean no change in their situation. At least brexit, whether it will or not, offers a changing of the situation. I'm not of the opinion it will help this people at all, but if you already feel you are at the bottom, it might have seemed like the only way to change things.

Point being, there are plenty of people doing very well in the Republic who wouldn't want that situation changed drastically just for a united Ireland.

Kow

A vote for a unified Ireland in the Republic would pass by a landslide. People are sheepish about the whole subject because it's still associated with violence but I can guarantee support would be massive, regardless of what polls say. Very few people vote on these issues for economic reasons, it's all ideology. And ideologically, unification is a no brainer. It's coming sooner or later and the smart thing to do is to start putting pressure on the south to implement attractive policies like health care to soften the landing (and benefit everyone). Any taoiseach would cut his ears off with a hacksaw to be the guy in power when unification happened.

RedDave2

Let's agree to disagree.

acemuzzy

Oh god is BoJo gonna somehow get his shitty deal, and come it looking like a political genius. That would literally be the worst of all worlds.

Armitage_Shankburn

Or, you know, the country's heading for a fucktarding and maybe we should get some resolution, your niece Polly be damned.

Diluted Dante

We can get a resolution under Prime Minister Corbyn.

davyK

kneecap wrote:

What are ye talking about, Ireland would absolutely vote to unify. The only question is the soft "N" nationalists and the small "U" unionists in the north. People don't vote based on economics. If they did NI would vote to Unify with Ireland.

Have you any idea of the difference in the cost of living and tax regime between RoI and UK? I won't pretend I know it in detail but I know enough. There would be pain for us. I really cannot fathom your thinking.

And we cost a fucking packet. A subsidy of around £10bn a year.

kneecap wrote:

Most of Ireland would vote against it (border region and donegal would vote in favour.) And Brexit.... Well come on. People vote on emotions. The only way I'd vote against a United Ireland is if too many consessions were made to appease a faction of loyalists who are unappeasable anyway. I want a UI but not at the cost of the spirit of Ireland. In other news the Brits are breaking the Good Friday Agreement in the Emma De Souza case. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ni-born-people-are-considered-british-until-they-renounce-citizenship-court-rules-1.4049810 How many ways is it now?

No idea where you are getting these ideas from re voting. Voting by emotions? Are you serious?

I'm not familar with the details of the De Souza case. However NI people have dual nationality. We can own 2 passports if we so desire. The De Souza case is about residence of the US husband and I suspect it's a pretty technical thing going on there.

Re a UI. I'm not culturally averse. But economically you can bet I am.

Loyalist arseholes are a blight. No doubt about it. We have it both ways here though. But doing to loyalists what they did to a nationalist minority (which remains a shame and disgrace - there is guilt among moderates here) isn't a clever way of dealing with the problem. But I agree they shouldn't be appeased in unreasonable ways.

But I'd be more interested in an independant Ireland. I don't want my leaders scurrying off cap in hand every 17th March to the Whitehouse to beg for crumbs off the table with big tech companies not paying their taxes while availing of Irish resources.

I don't want to swap West Brits for East Yanks.

North and South together - we could punch well above our weight. And we shouldn't be afraid of getting big companies to come over but pay their taxes. We should be confident in a global market.

kneecap

In the desouza case they are saying that all people in Northern Ireland are by default British and have to renounces British citizenship (£400 at the present time).

Emma de Souza says she doesn't have to renounce British citizenship because she's never had it doesn't want it and is entirely to be Irish

Those rights are bestowed both by the GFA and the Irish constitution.
We have always said people born in Ireland are or have the right to be Irish.
The GFA acknowledges the concept of One nationality, The other, or both.

Ireland modified it's constitution to remove the territorial claim on the mother as part of the GFA, turns out Britain didn't bother to do anything and has no mechanism to allow NI citizens be Irish, despite the GFA being and international agreed legal treaty.

Tl;dr if you from NI you get to be Irish, British or both and neither govt is supposed to get a say in denying you this.

Regrading Unification.

If you don't think Ireland would vote in favour... You seriously misunderestimate the general feeling here especially in young people.
After the legalisation of abortion, the slogan was "the north is next" (tonight to legalise abortion, not like an anexation campaign)

Regarding The republic "taking over NI"
Not the words I'd use but the comparison is Germany reuniting.
Modern Germany is the successor state of West Germany not East Germany.

A United Ireland is the successor state to Ireland. For example there will not be a question of EU membership. It continues, as Germany's did.

Regarding communities, I never suggested revenge or any such thing, no one desires that, simply that in a transition period reaching out to both communities, we should not compromise the open and tolerant nature of our modern country to appease a tiny minority (on either side) of dreadful people.

Sectarian Marching and bonfires (on both sides!) are disgusting and shouldn't be allowed. They're literal displays of racism.

The 12th could be rescued if the antagonistic nature is removed and turned into historical celebration in the city centre. Columbus it. Fund lambeg drum workshops and Ulster Scots poets. Whatever.

But not the bullshit that's been left to fester, it has no place in a modern country.

The real way to move past all that is just to get an economy that works.
There's no reason Belfast couldnt be a second Dublin in a UI, it would help stop the self sabotage that's going on now with awful rent situation, Multinationals could set up there instead and have the same benefits but be cheaper for the workers to live in.

And also there'd finally be a train to Donegal. I heard it's pretty. So that's a plus.

kneecap

Enough Irish Bollocks.

Turkey what can be done?
The EU has little leverage and Merkel has no spine.

monkey

acemuzzy wrote:

Oh god is BoJo gonna somehow get his shitty deal, and come it looking like a political genius. That would literally be the worst of all worlds.

The deal seems worse for the U.K. than May’s. So any Labour MP voting for this that didn’t vote for the WA has been completely played by Johnson.

ChopperByrne

I wouldn't vote for unification.

If Northern Ireland wants to leave the UK, fine, and I'd campaign for them to have immediate EU membership, but currently, unification would just lead to violence, and more poverty.

Diluted Dante

Fucking hell, the police have banned all XR protests throughout London. And they wonder why people hate them.

acemuzzy

Armitage_Shankburn wrote:

Or, you know, the country's heading for a fucktarding and maybe we should get some resolution, your niece Polly be damned.

Is not just the deal, it's the bounce it will give the Tories and their right-wing bullshit. Would guarantee four more years I suspect, likely with bonus austerity. Not the kind of resolution I'm keen for.

Kow

ChopperByrne wrote:

I wouldn't vote for unification.

If Northern Ireland wants to leave the UK, fine, and I'd campaign for them to have immediate EU membership, but currently, unification would just lead to violence, and more poverty.

There's probably violence on the cards, one way or another. But I'd imagine violence caused by unification would be less and shorter lasting than that of a hard border. Let's face it, the IRA renounced violence because they thought they could achieve their aims politically. If it appears that things are moving backwards, there's little doubt they'll take up arms again, and a new generation with them.

RedDave2

Diluted Dante wrote:

Fucking hell, the police have banned all XR protests throughout London. And they wonder why people hate them.

Or alternatively XR is protest for protest sakes, aims to achieve... Nothing really , and the people involved are doing things the lazy way of trying to make change.

Just my view. Each to their own.

Yossarian

The aim is pretty clear: to try and halt an environmental catastrophe.

And what’s a less lazy way of effecting change exactly? What should they be doing instead?

Armitage_Shankburn

RedDave2 wrote:

Diluted Dante wrote:

Fucking hell, the police have banned all XR protests throughout London. And they wonder why people hate them.

Or alternatively XR is protest for protest sakes, aims to achieve... Nothing really , and the people involved are doing things the lazy way of trying to make change.

Just my view. Each to their own.

Would you care to expand on that view?

In what way is XR "protest for protest sakes"?

What leads you to conclude that the aims are to achieve "nothing really"

In what way are things like enduring cold and rain, kettling, gluing to surfaces, arrest, prosecution, loss of work and livelihood "the lazy way of trying to make a change"

I await your answers impatiently

Kow

@Yaser Writing letters to their local mp.

Armitage_Shankburn

What a fucking astounding post. The temerity of people to just throw any old shit about and then issue, as if it's some kind of stupidity disclaimer "just imo lol", fucktardery of the highest grade.

Still, I genuinely do still have an open mind and it may well be reddave has some coherent arguments and isn't just being a lackwit

monkey

I think they're starting to target the City now aren't they? Or planning to.
Hence the crackdown probably.

Whether it's XR putting them forward or the broadcasters selecting them, I do wish that teenagers wouldn't be the voxpop protestors on the news. They're very admirable, ten times the person I was as a teenager but they're still know-nothing idiots without any comprehension of the adult world. One of them the other day was saying everyone in the country had to go vegan NOW. Even if that's what you think, just, you know, hearts and minds. You're not going to berate grown men into giving up their bacon sarnies on the say so of some holier-than-thou snot nose bitch who's still taking her A-levels.

All this allows the right-wing to use their attack lines of middle-class protestors telling poor people what to do. Their image and PR needs to be fundamentally different if they're going to change minds.

Brooks

I think they're starting to target the City now aren't they? Or planning to.

Fucking good.

poprock

I see Dave’s point, or at least some of it.

Extinction Rebellion looks, from the outside, like a generalised protest to raise awareness of the climate catastrophe facing us. And maybe to push Governments to put fighting it higher up their agendas. What it lacks, again from an outside view, is any one clear message or any suggested practical aims. There’s no agenda for how to tackle climate change.

And that’s okay. Because it’s a big problem and we can’t expect the protesters to have the answers. But I can appreciate why their agenda might look vague to some.

Thing is, it only takes a moment’s consideration to realise that of course XR don’t have the answers. Most of the people in the streets aren’t climate science specialists. Or politicians. Or lobbyists. Or billionaire media platform owners. Or any of the people who might actually have ways of affecting real change. So telling those people you give a shit is really all you can do.

RedDave2

Armitage_Shankburn wrote:

What a fucking astounding post. The temerity of people to just throw any old shit about and then issue, as if it's some kind of stupidity disclaimer "just imo lol", fucktardery of the highest grade. Still, I genuinely do still have an open mind and it may well be reddave has some coherent arguments and isn't just being a lackwit

Yawn. Maybe less coffee in the morning. I'm just expressing an opinion. Get over yourself and your need to combat everything.

But to answer your questions

Its protest for protest sake because (at least in how they have represented themselves) they don't seem to have any concrete end goal. There's a general "we want to raise awareness" approach which is a late in the day. Everyone is aware of climate change. Some don't believe it, but they are aware it is an issue. These protests wont convince them its an issue, if anything it will be the opposite. It's also aimed in completely the wrong direction because at this point you need te be influencing action beyond just demanding it. I'm not against protest at all but when the aim is to disrupt you need a concrete end goal. They have loose demands which I'll get to, but there doesn't seem to be a concrete plan of what to do.

My view that they don't really aim to achieve much is two fold. In the first case, if you wont to influence things on the scale needed, you really need to either have a political party fully backing it or create your own that will stand at as many elections as possible and do the work to actually change policy. Or in the second way, you start changing the industries that are causing the worst effects. Blocking up major cities doesn't really achieve anything in my view. It will cement those who don't believe / don't want to believe further and for those on your side, you are hitting them too.

If I am understand XR right, they want a citizen assembly - I'm not sure this will get them that. They want Government to speak the truth. Thats not an unfair request, but will this do anything towards that or would ever member supporting something likes the guardians recent report on the main polluters and funding the guardian and similar to push further not be a better tactic. They want the government to act now - who are they putting forward with the plan on how government to act? A main complaint of Brexit was when they won, they walked away and said it was up to government to deliver it. This would be no different.

Its a lazy way to make change to me because its attempting instant action. Change on this scale will take huge amount of hard work, consultation with many people and industries and politics. General protests can be part of it but I disagree with some of the stuff like blocking traffic and business. This is a fast diet approach and I will it will have the same effect. There's a big noise at the start, and then we go back to normal.

Maybe I'm wrong though and they will be the cause of big change in government. I certainly think their overall goal is worth it. Just not sure that mas social disobedience is the way to go about it in this case. But hey, just imo lol.

Yossarian

if you wont to influence things on the scale needed, you really need to either have a political party fully backing it

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/apr/23/labour-extinction-rebellion-climate-change

Aim achieved.

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