The British Politics Thread - The Bear and Badger

RedDave2

Kara_Jane_Adams wrote:

Gallup opinion polls about Martin Luther King conducted in the 1960s found that disapproval of him among Americans intensified as the Civil Rights Movement grew. Which is just one of the reasons I couldn’t care less about people who disapprove of non-violent protest.

Is your opinion that he would have been better served going full violent protest instead? I'm honestly not sure if that would work better or worse. On the one hand, I do think the civil rights movement benefited from his peaceful approach getting white folk on side.

The flip side is America still has huge racial divides.

Yossarian

You seem to be implying that XR is violent?

Kara_Jane_Adams

RedDave2 wrote:

Is your opinion that he would have been better served going full violent protest instead? I'm honestly not sure if that would work better or worse. On the one hand, I do think the civil rights movement benefited from his peaceful approach getting white folk on side.

The flip side is America still has huge racial divides.

XR isn’t violent.

Any attempt to effect change will be viewed negatively by certain groups of society who see no issue with maintaining the status quo, regardless of how just your cause.

Trying to appease those people gets you nowhere.

Armitage_Shankburn

@ RedDave

XR have very clearly defined goals, aims, whatever. The trite "but what are your goals" thing doesn't work here. If you haven't done the basic work of looking these up, and ended up with the old "protesting for protesting's sake" cliché, that's on you.

And it isn't about me, I've studiously avoided responding to this thread as I would, belittling people etc. But your post was so astoundingly misconceived, I had to. "It's just, like, my opinion, man". How old are you, dude?

See you in 25 years when you suffocate in the summers, struggle to feed yourself and your family (lol at the restaurant), and have to support a violent militaristic regime just so the refugees knocking on your door can be kept out. All of Spain without drinking water. All of North Africa. All of the middle East. Bangladesh, disappeared. Look up how many people live in that tiny delta. Where do you think they will go, Iran? Plastics in your belly, plastics in your lungs, god knows what in your or your children's DNA, that they will pass on to others.

The time to act is now. Bold reforms. Strict laws setting uqotas on flying, on meat production, clean cars and public transport investment to avoid wasteful individualised carbon footprints. If we do this in the next 10 years, we might end up with a planet that can sustain maybe half of our current population.

Emergency measures, that is the goal. Putting society on an emergency footing because the orientation of our system is towards cosmetic, ineffective or at best slow-progressing measures.

We're turning our planet into Venus. It's stark. Instead of laughing at climate change deniers and telling ourselves we do what we can ("I sort out my plastics from my cardboard, don't I?), Exctinction Rebellion are giving us a jolt. I for one am thankful and ashamed. I went up to some of them outside a mags court in the city, suit and all, and told them I admired them, the way they were spending their freedom for a good cause, and that I felt ashamed I couldn't join them because I'd lose my job and my and my family's only decent income. I'm also a hypocrite, I'm also shit, but at least I don't lie to myself and tell myself trite comforting stories about these people just to sleep at night. Shame on you.

RedDave2

Yossarian wrote:

You seem to be implying that XR is violent?

No, I think I just misread Karas post about MLK. I should have worded the question better - basically did MJKs non violent protest work better than if he and his followers been more aggressive in their actions.

While I don't agree with XR, I wouldn't classify them as the violent category.

Diluted Dante

To step away from XR for a moment, Johnson has until midnight to accept a deal for a border in the Irish Sea.

This could be fun.

JMW

XR is literally the opposite of violent.

RedDave2

@Armitage

I've been on the websit, I've read online reports, and I've listened to some of them. I wouldn't argue with their justification - I just don't agree with their method. All the other stuff you've posted - the heavy climate damage, the possible situation the world will be in - I've not argued one bit of this. I've just argued that I think their protest is not going to work and it lacks a clear goal to me.

You mention Bold reforms, strict laws, etc. and I agree - that is the stuff that needs doing. I'm not certain these act of rebellion will do what its intending. This isn't going to change anyone's mind who is blind to it - its more likely to entrench their view. Honestly, if the situation is as bad as we think it is, the rebellion needed is far greater than this. Throwing blood onto the walls of a government building isn't going to achieve any great change.

And I'm not laughing at anyone. I'm just stating that I don't think this will have the effect that they claim to want - claims that I thing are a bit too broad but not without merit and would support. Maybe if more people help it might but if they cant convince you and you are fully behind them, doesn't that imply its not working? I don't think it will get them the citizen assembly, its not going to help the three demands bill they want pushed through, it wont get the government to call a climate emergency.

Look, however anyone feels about Corbyn, when labour threw their weight behind XR, they should have used that as one (not only) of their key things - get labour to agree to the three points bill, to organise the CA, to call the climate change as soon as their get voted in and then XR will work towards that vote. Have they done that? (if they have, then I'm happy to be called wrong)

As for the personal stuff - I didn't laugh at anyone, I didn't mock their belief or them. I think their protests are going to be ineffectual (and of course I might be wrong on this) and I think its a bit of a lazy to just protest in the manner they are doing. Thats it. So please stop throwing words like Shame about. I just posted that I didn't like their method of disruption protest and I don't think it will achieve much. You can agree or disagree with that, but don't get so high and mighty over anyone else. No-one has said that what they are protesting about is incorrect.

Diluted Dante

Gonz isn't joining in due to the ludicrous arrests the police are making, which would cost him his career. Which goes back to my original post. Fuck the police.

Kara_Jane_Adams

RedDave2 wrote:

Look, however anyone feels about Corbyn, when labour threw their weight behind XR, they should have used that as one (not only) of their key things - get labour to agree to the three points bill, to organise the CA, to call the climate change as soon as their get voted in and then XR will work towards that vote. Have they done that? (if they have, then I'm happy to be called wrong.

And risk alienating huge swathes of people by turning a global environmental concern into a national political one.

Terrible idea.

monkey

Labour's XR support has so far been a couple of wishy-washy promises from shadow cabinet members. They wouldn't be the first political party to wrap themselves up in some nice environmentally-friendly packaging only to forget about it the second they got a taste of power.

For reasons I've already banged on about, XR should be as politically unaffiliated and as broad church as possible.

RedDave2

monkey wrote:

Labour's XR support has so far been a couple of wishy-washy promises from shadow cabinet members. They wouldn't be the first political party to wrap themselves up in some nice environmentally-friendly packaging only to forget about it the second they got a taste of power. For reasons I've already banged on about, XR should be as politically unaffiliated and as broad church as possible.

Kara_Jane_Adams wrote:

RedDave2 wrote:

Look, however anyone feels about Corbyn, when labour threw their weight behind XR, they should have used that as one (not only) of their key things - get labour to agree to the three points bill, to organise the CA, to call the climate change as soon as their get voted in and then XR will work towards that vote. Have they done that? (if they have, then I'm happy to be called wrong.

And risk alienating huge swathes of people by turning a global environmental concern into a national political one. Terrible idea.

Ok, both valid points but at least it gets them to the bigger table, like it or not. I do agree there is a huge risk there so maybe not the best solution.

Diluted Dante wrote:

Gonz isn't joining in due to the ludicrous arrests the police are making, which would cost him his career. Which goes back to my original post. Fuck the police.

You know what? I kinda of agree with you a bit, given a bit more thought.. If the police are stopping destruction of property, I'm going to side with them. But if they are just moving those who aren't obstructing or causing mischief than your post is justified.

JMW

I was up there in the camp at Trafalgar Square in Sunday, there was no reason to tear it down. Completely peaceful, non-threatening, non-destructive etc. Some of the singing was a bit crap.

[Deleted User]

Diluted Dante wrote:

Fuck the police.

Oh, you went there.

kneecap

davyK wrote:

kneecap wrote:

Tl;dr if you from NI you get to be Irish, British or both and neither govt is supposed to get a say in denying you this.

Yeah. I seems to have over simplified this. There's quite a row about it on local radio this morning. The problem appears to be the legislature and its incompatibility with the concept of some things in the GFI it seems.

Drawing lines on a map eh?

kneecap wrote:

snip

You have good points; particularly about the young vote.

There's a lot of pluses to Irish Unity. I'm a unionist but I feel Irish. I don't feel British simply because I don't live in Britain. I live in the UK. Which is the United Kingdom of GB and NI.

I'm not sure any nationalist party, moderate or otherwise, reaches out to me or describes to me what it would look like.

Sinn Fein is all about victim politics and nothing about what a united Ireland could be on the global stage. The way they weaponised the Irish language which was just a big a part of the Protestant culture until recent times made it a toxic issue.

Irish Unity to me is something I'm wary of. I am wary of economic changes and as much as I shouldn't kow-tow to threats, I don't want my kids to grow up in the mess I did. And there is a chance of a hard core loyalist body becoming active.

There are horrific behaviours being tolerated here in the North. I myself am affected by them - and no-one has the balls here to deal with them. Unity will have to deal with them if we are to join the 21C. And that won't be pretty. Maybe it would be better with a unified government dealing with them.

I'm for a change and some pain but I'd want to be confident that medium to long term it would be for the good. I don't see that at the minute.

If I thought hardline loyalism was going to be faced down then that would be a big mark in the plus column. But it's also wrapped up in organised crime and the Dublin mob and the terrorists here would end up having a rumble.

A lot of Northern Nationalists need to start portraying themselves as modern Irishmen and not be defined by their opposition to the English.

A lot of Northern Unionists need to be able to state they Irish if they do. And start voting moderate in bigger numbers and not be afraid of Sinn Fein.

Moderate unionists have no voice now (neither to moderate nationalists for that matter). If a unionist party were to somehow appeal to a catholic vote block then it would probably delay any unification and/or ease the transition but that ain't there. Nor do I think it ever will. Many unionists do face the fact of unity but none dare mention it.

Regarding the vote, there is a growing block against it, I shouldn't deny that.
My brother is one of em and he was a flag waving Republican in the 90s.
Working in the prison service seems to have dissuaded him from these people, along with many other shitty sections of society.

There is a feeling (id say in the 40+ age group half way through a mortgage) of NI being a lost cause that can't be fixed and would drag us down.

Personally I see it as a huge opportunity for NI.
A temporary 3 string funding model, could be enacted.
Britain continuing it's commitment though ramping down over 5 or so years, Ireland Ramping up it's commitment avoiding shocks to the system and the EU having a massive structural fund.

NI can't just be dumped onto Ireland given the state it's in.
Britain still gets the win off the millstone off it's neck.

Sinn fein and the Dup would be irrelevant, the raison d',etre
No longer existing and NI could vote for parties based on economic ideology and form the junior partner of the next coalition gov and the left breaks free from Sinn feins bullshit in Ireland.

But do we have the politics to get all this right in Ireland.... Hmmm there wouldn't be any vindictive actions or the like but also they're wouldn't be the radical actions required.
The government here don't give a fuck about the housing crisis, the taoiseach cares more quality of fake tans than quality of life.

Chopper you know as well as me the ideal Ireland is a 31 county socialist republic.

We'll sign a trade deal for the strawberries and new potatoes and Wexford can go it's own way.

kneecap

Re: Extinction Rebellion, the only effective protest would be the Extinction of some of those who cause global warming. Seperating your recycling isn't going to save this planet.

I don't think people truly believe in climate change at the levels described. Certainly not on an emotional level.

davyK

I think NI being in the customs zone whilst part of the UK would out really well.

Of course it is the beginning of unification too. And there would be resistance.

ChopperByrne

It's against what hard line Unionists want though.

Treating NI differently to the rest of the UK.

NI having to do customs checks with the rest of the UK.

Completely understand why the DUP are against it.

Armitage_Shankburn

davyK wrote:

I think NI being in the customs zone whilst part of the UK would out really well.

Of course it is the beginning of unification too. And there would be resistance.

There are massive opportunities. Unification within a give and take Ireland would not be a disaster at all. It's shocking that self government has ended for years.

But the Republic of Ireland has to change too. If I were NI, even Catholic, I would have serious reservations about being absorbed into a country whose system is dysfunctional, which is stuck in a cycle of cuts for people and incentives for corporates, where political corruption is documented within the last generation of leaders, and where society is basically browbeaten into accepting homelessness and driving people to suicide, as the deregulation of the taxi and private hire sector showed.

So yeah, massive economic benefits for NI, big opportunity for Irish people on both sides of the border to ensure a unified Ireland does better for them

davyK

In a way it is quite an exciting time for us in Ireland. But there's a pile of shit to get through.

Kow

Enticing the people of northern Ireland with genuine economic change and social systems would benefit everyone. I have a lot of family in the north who are basically apolitical. They consider themselves Irish but would not even consider moving south as they would lose so much, especially NHS. Reforming the politics of the south would knock out that barrier to reunification and be great for the south, which suffers from shite infrastructure. Although Britain's self destruction is helping things along too.

davyK

ChopperByrne wrote:

It's against what hard line Unionists want though. Treating NI differently to the rest of the UK. NI having to do customs checks with the rest of the UK. Completely understand why the DUP are against it.

I can understand it too - up to a point.

In my view the DUP don't care about the union past it being a device against reunification. The reality is that they want an independant fifedom with their own set of fundamentalist views enshrined in law.

dynamiteReady

Kow wrote:

Enticing the people of northern Ireland with genuine economic change and social systems would benefit everyone. I have a lot of family in the north who are basically apolitical. They consider themselves Irish but would not even consider moving south as they would lose so much, especially NHS. Reforming the politics of the south would knock out that barrier to reunification and be great for the south, which suffers from shite infrastructure. Although Britain's self destruction is helping things along too.

I'm confused... I always thought you were Spanish!

Kow

O yeah, I forgot!

LivDiv

Strikes me that if there was an indie NI or reunification the DUP might actually have to start doing some work and drop most of their batshit crazy ideas.
Basically they are out off a job when the Union comes off the table.

dynamiteReady

Kow wrote:

O yeah, I forgot!

No, no... It all makes sense now...

The propensity to share blunt opinions, the pleasure you take in watching the UK fall apart... Posts in the food thread, and obviously, your consistent presence in the drinking man's thread...

You could only be either Spanish or Irish...

Or French... Or Scottish... Or Congolese...

Wait...

Kow

Racesist!

acemuzzy

BoJo going for the NI != rest of UK option then. Does feel about the only viable one. Certainly going to be interesting how that's received in parliament - certainly feels like it could open the door to the whole UK falling apart, and "unfair" on Scotland (though geography & history both play roles here...). Doesn't feel inconceivable it might get through. I'm not sure how I'd then feel. Maybe depends how rapidly we get chlorinated chicken / what the hell "transition" looks like, etc... I'm preparing for disappointment.

Yossarian

I still don’t see this getting through Parliament.

monkey

The Tories will all vote for it. Even most of the expelled ones. That just leaves 10-20 Labour weaklings needed. Weaklings like Stephen Kinnock.

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