The British Politics Thread - The Bear and Badger

Minnesänger

If the Torys voted for deal under May = pass.
If the Torys and DUP voted for deal under May and Johnson = pass.

There's nothing Labour or anyone else could have done.

That's mathematical fact.

monkey

I don’t think anyone can govern on the majorities the Tories have been managing for the past four years. 3-4% of MPs rebel and that’s your whole policy fucked.

Minnesänger

There's mathematically only one reason we're not out yet - the government opposes the government. If they agreed to leave, we'd be out, regardless of opposition.

Minnesänger

monkey wrote:

I don’t think anyone can govern on the majorities the Tories have been managing for the past four years. 3-4% of MPs rebel and that’s your whole policy fucked.

Cool. So stop blaming issues on other parties (which you do) or other leaders like Corbyn (which you do) when we could be out by now. It's hard but it's government. It's a mathematically indisputable fact that we're not out because of the tories - the majority of your ire should be aimed at them until cirumstances change,

RamSteelwood

Surely proof of how stupid leaving is if even the tories can't agree on fucking everyone over!

LivDiv

Minnesänger wrote:

There's mathematically only one reason we're not out yet - the government opposes the government. If they agreed to leave, we'd be out, regardless of opposition.

That isnt entirely true. There could conceivably be a deal (or could have) that attracted enough opposition votes to plug the ERG gap.
That avenue has never been explored though.

Minnesänger

True. But people like monkey don't hate people like Corbyn but...[diatribe]

monkey

Minnesänger wrote:

monkey wrote:

I don’t think anyone can govern on the majorities the Tories have been managing for the past four years. 3-4% of MPs rebel and that’s your whole policy fucked.

Cool. So stop blaming issues on other parties (which you do) or other leaders like Corbyn (which you do) when we could be out by now. It's hard but it's government. It's a mathematically indisputable fact that we're not out because of the tories - the majority of your ire should be aimed at them until cirumstances change,

I and others have made the point you’re making about the Tories loads of times in the past so I don’t really know what you’re on about.

GooberTheHat

If May had stuck with the majority she had we would be out by now. She gambled because she wanted a longer term, and fucked it for her, her party and the country.

Minnesänger

LivDiv wrote:

Minnesänger wrote:

There's mathematically only one reason we're not out yet - the government opposes the government. If they agreed to leave, we'd be out, regardless of opposition.

That isnt entirely true. There could conceivably be a deal (or could have) that attracted enough opposition votes to plug the ERG gap. That avenue has never been explored though.

It's mathematical fact that if Torys supported a Tory led deal it'd be done by now.Or, failing that, a DUP coalition deal. There's nothing anyone could do until it reached the House of Lords. FACT.

Minnesänger

monkey wrote:

Minnesänger wrote:

monkey wrote:

I don’t think anyone can govern on the majorities the Tories have been managing for the past four years. 3-4% of MPs rebel and that’s your whole policy fucked.

Cool. So stop blaming issues on other parties (which you do) or other leaders like Corbyn (which you do) when we could be out by now. It's hard but it's government. It's a mathematically indisputable fact that we're not out because of the tories - the majority of your ire should be aimed at them until cirumstances change,

I and others have made the point you’re making about the Tories loads of times in the past so I don’t really know what you’re on about.

Of course you don't.

monkey

GooberTheHat wrote:

If May had stuck with the majority she had we would be out by now. She gambled because she wanted a longer term, and fucked it for her, her party and the country.

Her majority was 12 (I think, there or there abouts). What’s the closest she got with the third vote on the WA? Forty odd votes short wasn’t it.

LivDiv

Yes, well done. That is a fact but it isnt the only fact.
This is the fault of the Tories, from austerity, to calling the stupid referendum and onwards but there could have been a deal without the ERG.

Minnesänger

I also remember you raising "yeah...but,.." points and not replying once anyone half-competent actually tackled the issue. Didn't you pull me up on NHS reform and then, once I answered, completely disappear from the topic?

monkey

Minnesänger wrote:

monkey wrote:

Minnesänger wrote:

monkey wrote:

I don’t think anyone can govern on the majorities the Tories have been managing for the past four years. 3-4% of MPs rebel and that’s your whole policy fucked.

Cool. So stop blaming issues on other parties (which you do) or other leaders like Corbyn (which you do) when we could be out by now. It's hard but it's government. It's a mathematically indisputable fact that we're not out because of the tories - the majority of your ire should be aimed at them until cirumstances change,

I and others have made the point you’re making about the Tories loads of times in the past so I don’t really know what you’re on about.

Of course you don't.

Accusations of disingenuousness apropos of fuck all. Nice. Tories are cunts. Corbyn’s a twat. These aren’t mutually exclusive.

Minnesänger

monkey wrote:

GooberTheHat wrote:

If May had stuck with the majority she had we would be out by now. She gambled because she wanted a longer term, and fucked it for her, her party and the country.

Her majority was 12 (I think, there or there abouts). What’s the closest she got with the third vote on the WA? Forty odd votes short wasn’t it.

Easy question. If Torys voted to support would it have gone through?

monkey

No.

monkey

Is that it? What do I win?

Minnesänger

I'm not sure, you tell me. Are you a moron?

Reasoning, please.

monkey

Well this has been fun. Tune in tomorrow for another episode of Cinty Rants at Everyone Because of Nothing.

g.man

Let's at least try and be civil gents.

Minnesänger

I'm fine. I'd just like to see the workings.

monkey

Minnesänger wrote:

I'm fine. I'd just like to see the workings.

Tories are a minority govt and need the support of others to put stuff through. But you already know this. Please read back these exchanges and try and note that no one is disagreeing with you that the Tories / DUP are culpable for Brexit not happening.

Diluted Dante

I think counting any period when May had an outright majority is not right, since there was no vote on any of this shit until January this year.

It's true that with the DUP they have a majority, and I had assumed that this just meant confidence motions and budgets, but part of the agreement is actually legislation pertaining to Brexit. So really, when they voted against the WA bill, they broke the agreement, and it's a sign of just how weak May was that she just let it slide.

Minnesänger

monkey wrote:

I'm fine. I'd just like to see the workings.

Tories are a minority govt and need the support of others to put stuff through. But you already know this. Please read back these exchanges and try and note that no one is disagreeing with you that the Tories / DUP are culpable for Brexit not happening.

I was noting that:

1. Tory's were a majority government
2. Tory's were then a coalition government.

May had a majority government - which I pointed out - and she lost - which I pointed out - and that doesn't change the fact that if Torys had voted for Tory policy they would have won and we'd be out.

You talk about "reading the exchanges" but did you read the posts before yours? MORON.

LivDiv

In response to Dante.

I always felt the confidence backing of the DUP was odd.
I get a coalition gov, with members of both parties aligned in a gov, sharing cabinet positions etc.

The confidence thing seems meaningless once the Queen has approved the gov. I guess it somewhat prevents motions of no confidence passing while the agreement stands.
Realistically though it was just a bribe to get over the line.

I feel like this aspect (along with many, many others) needs looking at once the dust settles.

Minnesänger

For a while they had carte blanche. They didn't vote for themselves. No-one else is to blame. It's not rocket science, regardless of coalitions afterwards.

monkey

Christ the state of this.

Minnesänger

Do you disagree that the majority formed in the 2015 election could have seen us out of Europe by now if they had voted for their own deal?

No avoidance or flippancy please.

monkey

No and no one has ever stated otherwise because why would they?

Howdy, Stranger!

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