Lads we cant have people knowing they can get better rights for themselves via the ballot box, that will stop us from exploiting them by making them fight with each other over people coming over here taking their jobs being the reason their working conditions are so shit and not because we can just keep their wages and prospects in the shitter to maximise the money we can take out at the other end for the shareholders, aka ourselves.

Load of pish.

But, it's true the snp goal of another Indyref this year is clean out the window. Or at least, an Indyref with Westminster consent. I'm not an ultra militant indy supporter, I'm willing to wait and see what the snps next move will be, but they're alienating a lot of their core support in the way they're handling this.

There's an increasing amount of independence supporters that think the snp are being too soft by not just immediately withdrawing their mps from Westminster and declaring UDI. Wings over Scotland and Craig Murray seem to be leading the charge. There's a lot of people that voted snp but don't necessarily support them, but they want indy and the snp are the best chance of that. There's a lot of frustration in the indy camp, because the snp will say things like 'indyref2 in 2020!' then Westminster just say 'lol, nope'.

Like I said, I'm unsure what the next move will be. Legislation is going through holyrood just now to get support yet again for a referendum, but it's about as effective as throwing meringues at a castle, Westminster will just continue to tell them to fuck off, because they can. The snp have unequivocally ruled out a catalonia style ref, there's no point in taking it to any of the UK courts, as the tories will just rush through legislation to change things to their ends.

Craig Murray suggests going to the un, and using the same argument the UK used when (I think) Kosovo or one of those countries was going for independence. Its on one of his blog posts, but the gist of the uks argument in that case was if a nation wishes to secede, the laws of the larger nation don't really matter, every country has a right to self determination. I'm wondering if after this next request gets denied if that'll be the route the snp go down.

Another thought that occurred to me (while stoned as fuck) was rather than a referendum on Scottish independence, hold a referendum on withdrawing from the act of union. Essentially the same thing, but they could frame it in a way that says 'we're still in the UK, just not in a union of parliaments'.

The EU are staying quiet about it all officially, but I wonder if that will change come February 1st. Right now, they say they won't get involved in the internal politics of member States, but I wonder if that will change once the UK is out. I hope that then, the EU will finally say out loud they'd allow Scotland back in, it helps them anyway, we'd be bringing most of the uks resources back in, so i don't see why they wouldn't support our bid to be independent and rejoin the EU. And it'd piss Westminster off immensely.

To sum up: fuck knows. Only thing that's reasonably certain is that there likely won't be an Indyref in 2020, which gives the tories the opportunity to shout about the snp breaking manifesto commitments.

I suspect the snp will have a 'big announcement' on or around the 6th of April (think that's the right date) to coincide with the 700th anniversary of the declaration of arbroath. Just dunno what it'll be.

EDIT: just realised that's not an original thought, read it in a wings/Murray blog post.

and to add, keep up the dope smoking

The SNP can't really withdraw their MP's unless they explicitly stand on a platform of abstaining.

Not have a deranged right wing government seems a pretty good reason to leave. As does being able to rejoin the EU.

That’s likely to mean a hard border now though. What with the Uk leaving the single market and CU.

That comparison is often made, by both sides.

For me, as an indy supporter, it's about my vote actually mattering. As I've said on here a few times, my vote is worth less than an English badgers, from a purely mathematical perspective. The tories haven't won in Scotland since something like 1955, but we keep getting lumbered with them.

And, as an indy supporter, its easy to say 'scexit and brexit are two completely different things!', it's equally as easy for a unionist to argue they're not. For me, brexit is about (let's be honest) England withdrawing into itself, because it still believes its the biggest best country in the world and none of those bally Europeans will tell them what to do, by jove! And taking the rest of the UK with them. Scexit on the other hand is about being independent, but equal to other countries on the world stage and working with them, rather than against. And that's why I'd like to live in an independent Scotland that is an equal member state of the EU. The UK has done better in the EU. And forgetting that for a minute, every economical prediction I've seen has at the least said the UK will be worse off out of the EU. The UK and EU are two completely different types of union, its like comparing apples with gammon.

Your second paragraph sounds a lot like the 'devo max' they wheeled Gordon brown out to try and sell just before the Indyref went down in 2014. Never really got a clear picture of what that would be, and labour subsequently got pumped, so i guess we'll never know.

Obviously I don't speak for the entire indy movement, these are just my ramblings.

EDIT: @reddave, those other posts went up as I was typing mine.

Wings actually did an interesting article today about Scottish Labour, worth a wee read.

Regarding EU letting Scotland in, I'm always puzzled when this is presented as an argument against independence (not that that's how you presented it). We are already a European country, I consider myself a Scottish EU citizen. We already meet all the criteria, and regarding currency - we don't have to adopt the euro, we can keep using the pound (or any other currency we like tbf, this was proven in 2014). It's not like we're a 3rd world developing country that has some way to go before we could be allowed in the EU - we're already in it! The issue isn't getting into the EU, it's getting taken out of it against our will in the first place. And again, I honestly can't imagine why the EU wouldn't want a socially responsible, well resourced country joining its ranks, I honestly can't puzzle that out.

I think that's what a large part of the issue is - is Scotland a country, or just a region of the UK. I think under Scottish law, the people are sovereign, it depends on whether or not that'll be recognised on the world stage. Going back to the uks arguments for Kosovo or wherever it was, they successfully argued that it doesn't have to be unanimously recognised, just as long as it is. They also said that the wish to secede would often be repressed, in fact it was to be expected, but players like the UK and EU had a duty to support smaller states in their efforts for self determination.

I'd love it as well mate. As you said, interesting times ahead.

A very valid point funk. All my musings are based on the assumption that the EU will welcome us once we're independent, you're right, they might not. But, in that scenario, I still reckon an independent Scotland out of the EU will fare better than a Westminster governed Scotland outside the EU.

In fact, forgetting the EU even exists for a moment, I still fancy Scotlands chances more as an independent country than in the UK. The tories we have now literally scare the shit out of me for my boys future. I cannot fathom how anyone would want to be led by that shower of fuckwits.

Armitage_Shankburn wrote:

And anyway, with a resurgent English nationalist country south of the border, there is no guarantee thinks go well for Scotland (or Ireland for that matter.) Didn't go well before. England dwarfs the other countries in the union, there is no way around that.

All the more reason to gtfo as quickly as possible.

I have strong ties to Scotland.
My Granny is from Glasgow and is the head of the family, easily.
My brother moved up there in April and his mrs and her family are all Scottish.
My auntie and her lot were up there for over a decade, my cousins consider themselves Scottish despite being born in England.

I feel my sensibilities relate heavily to those up there.

Prior to Brexit I was quite against Scottish independence although very pro devolution. I really didnt want to break those links and as shit as Westminster could be I could see a way that Scotland could be satisfied, although through massive change.

With Brexit happening and the left and even centre utterly destroyed down here I say have at it.
Do what you can to get away because you will get fuck all from this government.

Bang on, 2014 there was “don’t leave the uk comfort blanket”, post Brexit that has gone.
No way does the eu not take Scotland with open arms - it is exactly the sort of country / society / economy which the eu laps up.