Politics of the Free - It’s because Democrats, stupid. - The Bear and Badger

RedDave2

Yossarian wrote:

This is insane:

https://twitter.com/jwcglaser/status/1134098069757267968

I’m not sure that democracy is currently possible in America.

I think this shit is everywhere. In the local elections in ireland a minister who was caught on camera saying he would basically help a company but only for a big pay in 2015 off has been elected for the 10th consecutive year.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thejournal.ie/hugh-mcelvaney-2487223-Dec2015/?amp=1

Look up the healety-rae clan for more insanity in terms of voter choice. Brexit is no different. So many people don't know who they are voting Nd often don't care as long as its their guy

Kow

The Healy Raes get votes because they do stuff for individuals and neighbours etc. Find Pat a job, get that wall fixed, let me have more pints on a Friday etc. It doesn't matter to them that they're a laughing stock in the country. Don't let them get known outside the country, we'd never live it down.

RedDave2

I know, but how anyone can vote in people with their view on climate change is crazy. And drink driving. And abortion.

Diluted Dante

Don't kill fetuses, kill fully formed human beings?

RedDave2

Diluted Dante wrote:

Don't kill fetuses, kill fully formed human beings?

It's all to do with God's plan and so on and so forth.

That's also the climate change position. No joke. One of them stood up and declared only God can affect the weather. We all laughed at the time.

Crying now as more of that family roll of the production line.

Diluted Dante

"It was God's plan for me to punch you in the face".

equinox_code

I find it hard to find pro life arguments extreme. You can talk all you like about bodily autonomy and rights to choose etc etc, but all of this comes second if you believe life begins at conception.

GooberTheHat

From the Mueller statement regarding his investigation.

The order appointing the Special Counsel authorised us to investigate actions that could obstruct the investigation. And we conducted that investigation and we kept the Office of the Acting Attorney General apprised of the progress of our work.

And as set forth in the report after that investigation, if we had had confidence that the President clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so.

We did not, however, make a determination as to whether the president did commit a crime. The introduction to the volume two of our report explains that decision. It explains that under long-standing Department policy, a President cannot be charged with a federal crime while he is in office.

Is this him basically saying that we do suspect trump of committing a crime, abd we would have charged him if he wasn't the president?

regmcfly

For what it's worth, at this point it's worth putting all this energy into getting the fat shite out next year.

GooberTheHat

Absolutely, but that's the job of the democratic nominee. The rest of the Senators and Congress can get on with impeachment. The fact impeachment proceedings will be televised, and all trumps dirty laundry will be on display will only help the Democrats chances of beating him.

regmcfly

That's a good point

RedDave2

equinox_code wrote:

I find it hard to find pro life arguments extreme. You can talk all you like about bodily autonomy and rights to choose etc etc, but all of this comes second if you believe life begins at conception.

I dont disagree and that was my own stance. Its the will of God stuff being the decider that I dont like. If someone told me they didn't want abortion because they personally found it a bridge they dont think society should cross, I'd understand because for a good while I was the same (I still would be for a personal basis but from a society basis I accept that there are other issues and so voted yes for abortion in Ireland) But for some the argument begins and ends with the simple "its against Gods will". I take issue with that. For sure let religion be part of your stance. But you need to be able to answer the harder questions of the debate with your own thoughts.

GooberTheHat

It being against gods will is a perfectly reasonable stance from a personal perspective, but it is not a reason for what is supposedly a secular government to legislate against it.

SpaceGazelle

equinox_code wrote:

I find it hard to find pro life arguments extreme. You can talk all you like about bodily autonomy and rights to choose etc etc, but all of this comes second if you believe life begins at conception.

Yes but who gives a shit what other people believe? People believe all sorts of bollocks but that doeasn't give them a right to enforce their views on other people.

Kow

Pro choice doesn't force anyone to do anything. You can still have your beliefs and follow them as you like. Pro life forces a belief on everyone. It's plain undemocratic.

SpaceGazelle

I wonder how many American pro lifers are vegetarian?

RedDave2

SpaceGazelle wrote:

equinox_code wrote:

I find it hard to find pro life arguments extreme. You can talk all you like about bodily autonomy and rights to choose etc etc, but all of this comes second if you believe life begins at conception.

Yes but who gives a shit what other people believe? People believe all sorts of bollocks but that doeasn't give them a right to enforce their views on other people.

That argument cuts both ways though. You believe abortion has a place in society. They don't. They believe its detrimental to the society they want to be part of. I don't agree with it anymore but I do understand where they are coming from.

Kow wrote:

Pro choice doesn't force anyone to do anything. You can still have your beliefs and follow them as you like. Pro life forces a belief on everyone. It's plain undemocratic.

The issue is far bigger than that. Imagine if the death penalty was introduced into Ireland. It wont affect you directly but it is now part of the society you are in. Would you be ok with that? I wouldn't.

Speaking only from my point of view I always saw a failing on both sides of the argument. On the pro-life side, it's all well and good saying every child should be born, but our society clearly isn't facilitating that. Having a Child under the best conditions is a huge change to a persons life, it has to be positive. Thats not possible in this society where Childcare costs, impact on career, impact on personal health etc. aren't what they would need to be. And thats before we take in the issue of rape cases.

On the Pro-choice movement, I've always felt that they fudged it (and I'm generalising) on the whole 'is a foetus a life or not' point. This shouldn't matter really. Accept its a life and accept that abortion is willingly ending that life but point to the reasons why. Forcing a woman to go through with birth when she is not ready for it for any reason - be it physical health, mental health, age, financial, whatever - should be the argument.

Both the above are only my own views of course. I was much more of a pro-life slant to be honest and I would be from my own personal point of view but I get to take that stance as a man who is established and wouldn't mind if me and the wife had a pleasant surprise. I might have felt very different if at the age of 16 a one night stand lead to me becoming a father when I clearly wouldn't have been ready or if one of my female friends was forced to go through with such a big event against their own wishes.

equinox_code

SpaceGazelle wrote:

equinox_code wrote:

I find it hard to find pro life arguments extreme. You can talk all you like about bodily autonomy and rights to choose etc etc, but all of this comes second if you believe life begins at conception.

Yes but who gives a shit what other people believe? People believe all sorts of bollocks but that doeasn't give them a right to enforce their views on other people.

Except that is the exactly what law is for, and there are all sorts of other instances where killing is prohibited. It doesn’t have to be me or someone I know getting killed for me to be reasonably against it (although, to be clear, I’m not)

Kow

Comparing the death penalty and abortion is nonsense. Abortion is a women's rights issues and a religious issue, neither of those things are related to the death penalty. Allowing for beliefs that do not impact either your life or your right to continue to express your beliefs is the only sensible option. The fact that you don't like it but have to accept it is part and parcel of living in a democratic society.

Yossarian

GooberTheHat wrote:

Absolutely, but that's the job of the democratic nominee. The rest of the Senators and Congress can get on with impeachment. The fact impeachment proceedings will be televised, and all trumps dirty laundry will be on display will only help the Democrats chances of beating him.

I think trying to beat him at the ballot box is a reasonable thing in normal times, but these are not normal times. It’s a president who has a huge amount of evidence of obstruction against him, one who is refusing all normal attempts at oversight, who has put a compliant AG in place who has said he’s going to investigate Trump’s political enemies and with a senate that is refusing to try and prevent foreign interference in the election due to partisan interference.

There’s every chance that Trump, with outside help, may win the election through illegality. There’s also the chance that even if he does lose, he refuses to step aside, he’s already hinted as such.

Trump isn’t a normal president, he’s a proto-autocrat. Ignoring that in favour of trying to win an election that may be neither free nor fair is a pretty risky move.

RedDave2

Kow wrote:

Comparing the death penalty and abortion is nonsense. Abortion is a women's rights issues and a religious issue, neither of those things are related to the death penalty. Allowing for beliefs that do not impact either your life or your right to continue to express your beliefs is the only sensible option. The fact that you don't like it but have to accept it is part and parcel of living in a democratic society.

Ok, lets exclude death penalty. How about Euthanasia? Or legalising Prostitution or Drug Use? When you are dealing with things which have such strong links to morals there will always be a certain degree of it being a battle of beliefs. People have a right to question what laws are being allowed in their society. You see abortion as only a womans rights and a religious issue but thats your belief. It's not the same belief others would have. Its not a quantifiable fact that it is those 2 issues and those alone. There are woman who were against abortion and some of the reasons given weren't religious.

RedDave2

Yossarian wrote:

GooberTheHat wrote:

Absolutely, but that's the job of the democratic nominee. The rest of the Senators and Congress can get on with impeachment. The fact impeachment proceedings will be televised, and all trumps dirty laundry will be on display will only help the Democrats chances of beating him.

I think trying to beat him at the ballot box is a reasonable thing in normal times, but these are not normal times. It’s a president who has a huge amount of evidence of obstruction against him, one who is refusing all normal attempts at oversight, who has put a compliant AG in place who has said he’s going to investigate Trump’s political enemies and with a senate that is refusing to try and prevent foreign interference in the election due to partisan interference. There’s every chance that Trump, with outside help, may win the election through illegality. There’s also the chance that even if he does lose, he refuses to step aside, he’s already hinted as such. Trump isn’t a normal president, he’s a proto-autocrat. Ignoring that in favour of trying to win an election that may be neither free nor fair is a pretty risky move.

And back on track. Re Trump not accepting losing the next election - I would be really worried about that. He is positioning the white house apparatus as a part of his own election team. The election will be tight anyway and I think if you went to Paddy Powers for odds on their being a recount demanded, they wouldn't be very good.

SpaceGazelle

equinox_code wrote:

SpaceGazelle wrote:

equinox_code wrote:

I find it hard to find pro life arguments extreme. You can talk all you like about bodily autonomy and rights to choose etc etc, but all of this comes second if you believe life begins at conception.

Yes but who gives a shit what other people believe? People believe all sorts of bollocks but that doeasn't give them a right to enforce their views on other people.

Except that is the exactly what law is for, and there are all sorts of other instances where killing is prohibited. It doesn’t have to be me or someone I know getting killed for me to be reasonably against it (although, to be clear, I’m not)

Let's be straight here, this is about religion. You should not be allowed to enforce your religious beliefs on others. The USA is the original secular country ffs.

RedDave2

SpaceGazelle wrote:

equinox_code wrote:

SpaceGazelle wrote:

equinox_code wrote:

I find it hard to find pro life arguments extreme. You can talk all you like about bodily autonomy and rights to choose etc etc, but all of this comes second if you believe life begins at conception.

Yes but who gives a shit what other people believe? People believe all sorts of bollocks but that doeasn't give them a right to enforce their views on other people.

Except that is the exactly what law is for, and there are all sorts of other instances where killing is prohibited. It doesn’t have to be me or someone I know getting killed for me to be reasonably against it (although, to be clear, I’m not)

Let's be straight here, this is about religion. You should not be allowed to enforce your religious beliefs on others. The USA is the original secular country ffs.

I'm an aethiest and was against abortion until I really thought about it and took stock of my stance. It's not just religion.

SpaceGazelle

It's 99% religion and 1% *insert other stupid thing here*

RedDave2

SpaceGazelle wrote:

It's 99% religion and 1% *insert other stupid thing here*

I am not a stupid thing.

Most of the time.

Kow

Euthanasia is an easy moral choice, ok not that easy, but again the case is imposing your beliefs on others or allowing others to make their own choices on spite of your beliefs. But it's an easier debate because there's no question of whether human life is involved or not. I didn't say abortion was only a religious and women's rights issue, but rather that they are involved, where as they are not in euthanasia for example - we can all make a moral decision, religious or not. Saying human life begins at conception and therefore must be protected is a fundamentally religiously informed point of view. A phrase like protecting the unborn is a fantastical religious turn of phrase. Allowing people to make their own informed decisions is the heart of a democratic society, especially when you are in no way excluded from practising your own beliefs and promoting and educating on them too, if you wish. Allowing abortion doesn't stop you from using all your energy to explain why people shouldn't do it. The anti abortion stance just shuts all that down.

equinox_code

I would have thought the case for legalizing euthanasia, prostitution and drug use are a lot simpler. They’re pure bodily autonomy. Abortion is more complex. If you believe life begins at conception, then abortion goes beyond women’s rights and all the other pro choice angles- it is murder. And that’s not the sort of moral decision pro lifers want enforced on an opt in basis.

I really don’t understand why the pro life angle is so hard for people to comprehend.

Kow

Like gay marriage - you vote against it because you don't want to see a society where that exists. Democratic? I really don't think so.

Kow

equinox_code wrote:

I would have thought the case for legalizing euthanasia, prostitution and drug use are a lot simpler. They’re pure bodily autonomy. Abortion is more complex. If you believe life begins at conception, then abortion goes beyond women’s rights and all the other pro choice angles- it is murder.

I really don’t understand why the pro life angle is so hard for people to comprehend.

It's not hard to understand at all, it's very simple in fact.

Howdy, Stranger!

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