Brexit: Boris' Big Belgian Bangers - The Bear and Badger

acemuzzy

So in summary...

ESCAPE: give an example of the EU actually protecting UK citizens
ROUJ: OK - card fees
ESCAPE: yes, but... twitter accounted for this differently

Roujin

Of course they haven't been forced into it! No one is saying that!

But thanks to dickhead leave voters creating the environment we now exist in, businesses who can advantage of the situation, will, if they think they can get away with it. Since they were already doing it before, all the fucking mobile charges and all that shit was also covered in that 2015 legislation from the EU iirc.

American Express is dogshit anyway inside Europe in comparison to Visa and MC, loads of places don't even accept it to start with because their merchant prices already took the piss and they probably couldn't be bound by EU law to drop their fees.

I'm real cranky this morning so I apologise if this comes off as mean but it seems to me in all these discussions like you are looking for ways to say "the EU didn't look after its citizens as well as it should have" so that you can get some comfort out of your and your friends voting choices in 2016. When in reality, even if the EU could have done more, which I'm sure it could, what it did do was more than the UK government would have done, since we could have done stuff like create the law for the cap on fees ourselves as a sovereign nation, if we wanted.

Escape

This is really about banking, and I'm not aware of the ECB setting any moral examples?

Surely I can feel that leaving the EU's a bad idea on many levels while being disappointed with them in tandem? I do agree that most leave votes were born of ignorance.

acemuzzy wrote:

So in summary...

ESCAPE: give an example of the EU actually protecting UK citizens
ROUJ: OK - card fees
ESCAPE: yes, but... twitter accounted for this differently

I'm looking at how the narrative'll play out, with remainers praising the EU for its limits and thus implicitly blaming leavers for this rise, when it's something that huge corporations could forgo if they chose to.

Roujin

Escape, everything like this that goes bad after we have left because the UK is no longer covered by some piece of EU legislation, is indirectly the fault of every leave voter.

Who else is to blame for the "unintended consequences" that remain campaigners warned about?

acemuzzy

This is a dumb argument.

- I think we're all agreed the EU wasn't and isn't perfect
- There seem to be clear examples of it don't better than the UK government alone

The thing this started from was whether those bullets should encourage folk to view Remain, or to abstain. Your choice was obviously dominated by the first bullet, most others by the second. Giving more examples of the first bullet being true didn't shift anything and it's getting boring giving nobody is denying it. IMHO.

Escape

acemuzzy wrote:

This is a dumb argument. - I think we're all agreed the EU wasn't and isn't perfect

We just never had the intelligent public convo we deserved; never heard back on what concessions might've been available. It was all done on our behalf and relayed so poorly, with a great many questions unasked because of Tory guardianship.

I could've probably been swayed to vote remain had I felt my voice was heard. That's why I relate to kneejerk leavers, only without the voting to leave. 'Tis boring I keep repeating I think we needed at least four options instead of two.

There seems to be a strong parallel with nose-holding Starmer voters and abstainers like me. I should vote for him, I fully realise that, but I expect more Blairism and I don't want to know I ever endorsed it.

Roujin

Dude I had to deleted my first sentence because you activated my trap card so hard with that one. The intelligent public discourse was plentiful, it just didn't take place in the fucking Daily Mail comment sections and shit.

Saying your voice wasn't heard when the referendum was a national majority vote, so your opinion counted as much as anyone else. Basically because lexit got dumped as an idea pretty quickly (as part of the intelligent public discourse) you decided that rather than protect what we had you would just not vote and take the risk that somehow we would leave and Corbyn would get elected to PM and enact a load of radical socialist policy that went even further than the EU, even though the legislation we have from the EU has developed over the course of half a century to get to where we were.

Funkstain

No but there’s victim status that needs addressing. All of us bullying elite remainders who simply cannot understand why so many disenfranchised people voted leave because... er they didn’t think they could be even more disenfranchised if we left the eu, bullying the poor leavers and abstainers when they had good reasons to vote (or not) the way they did!

Like, erm, big Corps weren’t regulated enough so that’s disappointing and the best solution is to leave any such regulations there are to get shafted worse because it’s the tories who own leave and anyone who has any illusions about what they’ll do with it is erm “uninspired by the eu” aka ignorant, misled, or nihilist

Look. I get the defensiveness, I do! But you have to own it. You and your mates your voted leave or didn’t vote. Just own it. When you’re reduced to saying “but the eu didn’t regulate enough! And anyway the Corps could always regulate themselves. These charges increasing: that is on Corps! Not on leave voters! Blame the Corps separately!” Conveniently ignoring several posts laying out that Corps are not moral entities and they exist and are encouraged to make profits and that anyone who doesn’t know that is clearly a bit special, and those that do know it understood that leaving the eu owned by tories would result in companies charging more - ie direct link between voting leave and paying more for goods and services

poprock

When it came down to referendum day, Escape chose idealism over mitigation of harm. Personally, I can’t vote that way - I’d hold my nose and vote for the lesser of two evils every time.

acemuzzy

But I get arguments for not voting for a centrist Labour. There's an argument it will shift Labour to the left in the long run, if they still keep losing (and that things won't materially be better than with the Tories anyway), and GEs repeat.

I don't fully believe those arguments in the Labour case, but they're potentially valid.

But neither applies in the EU referendum case.
- What is the long-term play to justify the short-term damage?
- Will the EU become more left wing without us? I mean maybe. Not that we'll now gain from that.
- Will the UK become more left wing? Feels decidedly unlikely.
- Will get another view to rejoin and magically have more power having rejoined?
What was your hope of change in the back of abstaining?

Much like "Corbynistas" would have PayPal blame if they don't vote Labour in 2024 & the Tories get back in (despite their good intentions, and long-term hopes), the same applies to folk like you at the referendum. And I just don't buy into the rationale for the stage you're taking. Or at least, o get the frustration at how things were, but it still feels like shooting yourself in the foot.

Kow

EU regulated roaming charges. Telecom companies were happy to fleece customers for years and resisted for as long as the could. I remember a particular loathsome cunt from one company saying how their resistance to reducing charges was really a victory for the consumer.

Funkstain

There is no positive progressive argument for voting leave unless you truly believe that outside of the EU there is a better chance of the UK (what’s left of it) electing a progressive government than if we remained.

RedDave2

Escape wrote:

acemuzzy wrote:

This is a dumb argument. - I think we're all agreed the EU wasn't and isn't perfect

We just never had the intelligent public convo we deserved; never heard back on what concessions might've been available. It was all done on our behalf and relayed so poorly, with a great many questions unasked because of Tory exclusivity. I could've probably been swayed to vote remain had I felt my voice was heard. That's why I relate to kneejerk leavers, only without the voting to leave. 'Tis boring I keep repeating I think we needed at least four options instead of two. There seems to be a strong parallel with nose-holding Starmer voters and abstainers like me. I should vote for him, I fully realise that, but I expect more Blairism and I don't want to know I ever endorsed it.

I think Roujs response covers most things but as an outsider looking in I do not get your stance at all. I may be projecting but are you using the fact that other leave voters didnt realise the pros and cons properly due to some lack of public info (which is a whole different issue) as the reason for your vote because you empathise with them?

From the outside what everyone found particularly odd with the UK stance (well, the English stance really) was that the UK was more or less one of the top 3 in the EU along with Germany and France. While it may not have been able to completely guide things, there is simply no way it could have been press-ganged into anything. So the issue isn't the problem with the EU, its how the elected officials (both MEPs and your normal ministers) did not follow the will of their own people. As has been posted so many times, if immigration was the thing, you could have locked that down years ago. Any law you didnt like could have been vetoed. All those issues you have with the EU could have been tackled had you sent MEPs who represented the UK (like every other country does) instead of sending anti-EU protest MEPs who just clogged things up.

Escape

I abstained knowing that things would get worse. I don't think I've ever advocated my position, just tried to explain it. If things grow noticeably worse for lower-class leavers it'll make rejoining a breeze in future.

[edit]

Remaining might've put us in Scotland's position for decades, although there's no indication of the EU shifting to the right any time soon.

In a perfect world, the EU would shift leftwards after reviewing the rising poverty that drove us towards leaving and their lack of aid, while our majority rightwing voterbase would magically realise that socialism's the best way to repair our damage. Eventually reuniting as progressive allies.

Won't happen, but my brain still occupies that wish space.

Roujin

I think you can already take the IF outta that post mate, just ask some fishermen.

Funkstain

It’s just protecting mates at this point. There is no coherent argument.

There’s “burn it all down” from those disenfranchised who (correctly) believe people like me haven’t done enough to sort the country out, and want to see us suffer even if only in whiny Twitter remoaner threads; schadenfreude as good a reason to vote as any for people like that.

There’s idealistic lexiters who think that somehow we’ve a better chance of progressive government specifically if we leave EU

Then there’s dumb “patriots” and bigots

And finally the people who will directly profit from the escapade.

Only the second lot are voting positively, and they are deluded.

RedDave2

Escape wrote:

I abstained knowing that things would get worse. I don't think I've ever advocated my position, just tried to explain it. If things grow noticeably worse for lower-class leavers it'll make rejoining a breeze in future.

Spare the rod and spoil the child? I just dont get your stance, sorry. Your're advocating your position by taking that position. You cant not vote and then duck the consequences of that.

b0r1s

Escape wrote:

If things grow noticeably worse for lower-class leavers it'll make rejoining a breeze in future.

No it won’t. Not even in the slightest. Not for at least a generation. The media are already blaming the EU for the mess caused by Brexit and they will double down over and over. In ten years time the story will be so twisted joe public will think the EU kicked us out their club because they hate our great nation.

Diluted Dante

Escape wrote:

I abstained knowing that things would get worse. I don't think I've ever advocated my position, just tried to explain it. If things grow noticeably worse for lower-class leavers it'll make rejoining a breeze in future.

You took a decision to actively make things worse?

Escape

A high cost for not feeling a part of endorsing a failing status quo that I think will lead to worse low-income European outcomes over the course of my lifetime. Unless it changes, which it might, but if we weren't using our threat of leaving to pressure them into a progressive rethink then I can't see who else will.

RedDave2 wrote:

Spare the rod and spoil the child? I just dont get your stance, sorry. Your're advocating your position by taking that position. You cant not vote and then duck the consequences of that.

Not ducking, and I won't duck if Johnson beats Starmer when I abstain in 2024 if it comes to that. Not defending any mates, either; it was their call. I think a lot of 'em were shortsighted, but it was so easy for them to believe the Mail's shite, such is the damage Blairism and the Tories have done to our community.

The EU were ostensibly absent, not egregious, hence the ease of scapegoating them.

RedDave2 wrote:

So the issue isn't the problem with the EU, its how the elected officials (both MEPs and your normal ministers) did not follow the will of their own people.

Yes! That's an excellent point. Though of course the will of our people was terrible nonsense. But just as we need PR so badly here, so too all member states need leftwing representation within the EU.

Not rightwing loons against centrists by centralisation.

RedDave2

But the idea that the EU lowered the income of any country can be proven to be false by just looking to Ireland. We've increased the minimum wage nearly every year for the past few years - it might still not be were everyone wants it to be but it is moving only in one direction in my lifetime - Up! My in-laws in Poland have seen the same through the EU.

Blaming the EU migrants for lowering your wage is really letting your government (and the employers) off. The EU does not dictate this at all.

Funkstain

This is the base idea, I think, underpinning Escape's cynicism / distrust of the EU

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/29/eu-not-fit-for-purpose-to-reduce-poverty-in-europe-says-un-envoy

And I agree with it. My issue is that Brexit, as a standalone thing, doesn't improve these issues; it probably exacerbates them in the short/medium term; and escaping the EU doesn't have any impact, one way or the other, on how well our government will look after us

UNLESS

you see Brexit as an accelerant towards the level of misery needed to effect quick change, which Escape has hinted at (the slow deprecation of worker rights and pay over decades, ie: the "centralist problem" of not changing anything structurally because "live in the real world commie"; the admission that abstention was in the knowledge that things would get worse in short term)

Escape

I'm waiting to see if LIDL prices go up and that sort of thing; if my local fruit farmers can't get their cheap Romanians this year... That's when leavers'll notice.

On the rare occasions I buy something in an upmarket shop I feel self-conscious about paying with my prole Debit card. Is it a black card you get to show off? I can't get a credit card, hence my unvexed reaction. Not that I don't accept it as a negative for others, it's just not for me. Same as paying an extra grand for a £40k German car, if that were to happen.

(That Martin Lewis pisses me off whenever he mentions a balance transfer as a solution for poor people without CC access. Why not lease your next car instead of buying new?! Subscribe for more money-saving tips!)

If I had to vote today I'd vote to remain as a Tory countermeasure, knowing that Starmer's the best we can get and no more to the left than the EU. Corbyn was a known Bennite but vacillated too much.

Diluted Dante

What are you talking about? A balance transfer is transferring from one credit card to another. If you don't have a credit card there's nothing to transfer.

Escape

It's his favourite tip, but it doesn't account for people who can't get credit cards. Or in other words, the potential for saving money increases with income, and that's a social problem.

LivDiv

I dont think there is anyone in this country that has done more to help people manage and get out of debt or save giving excess money to greedy megacorps than Martin Lewis.

I'm sure he has done alright out of it himself but its well earned.

Diluted Dante

Escape wrote:

It's his favourite tip, but it doesn't account for people who can't get credit cards. Or in other words, the potential for saving money increases with income, and that's a social problem.

Yeah, it's his favourite tip because it helps people who have a credit card who are paying massive fees to not pay massive fees. Credit card debt in the UK is £69 billion, so it's hardly a niche issue. But again, I feel I must point out what you are saying is nonsense. It can't possibly account for people with no credit card because you need a credit card to transfer a balance. If you don't have a credit card, then apply for one, it still won't help you because there is no balance to transfer.

Escape

You're a bit testy there, Dante. Some people don't qualify for credit cards; I don't. I'm not sure how many more ways there are to write it.

LivDiv wrote:

I dont think there is anyone in this country that has done more to help people manage and get out of debt or save giving excess money to greedy megacorps than Martin Lewis. I'm sure he has done alright out of it himself but its well earned.

I'm sure he's very useful at the level his advice can benefit you, but I saw bits of his TV show and none of it would've been any good to me.

I'm uncomfortable with anything that plays into the hands of the too-thick-to-budget rhetoric of poverty porn. I see lots of my low-income friends bashing others for struggling. I especially dislike that BBC programme where families boast about how much they spend on designer goods.

LivDiv

He gives advice on all sorts.
Its not about people being too thick either. Banks, utility suppliers etc have made a whole business of making things deliberately obtuse to confuse people.

His site is incredibly useful for a huge range of things, its even been a good go to for Covid advice and what people are entitled to.

He also took on Cameron's gov and won when they were trying to change the terms of student loans to get them paid back sooner.

You need to give your head a wobble.

Escape

Did you see his TV stuff? Bad representation of him? I'm sure his forum's helpful.

I've always got by with online searches and occasionally the CAB.

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