Racist - The Bear and Badger

davyK

Roujin wrote:

The difference with things like Dachau or Hadrians Wall or the buildings that these racist philanthropists built is that they serve a purpose. Unlike the statues erected to the people that build them which fail to mention where the money came from, or that the people being praised for their generosity were only generous when it came to helping white people.

That is a point. But a statue is hard evidence - and it needs to be archived somehow with the original plaque as an example of how these people were thought of at the time.

There's too much anger about at the minute. Anger I totally understand. But that cannot trump the need to keep these things as evidence to history.

Change the statues, change the plaques. I'm totally with that. But keep the original as hideous as they are. We have to remind ourselves how we can be and continue to be really really awful to other people. Where do we keep it and how we access it - I do not know but I've a strong opinion that it should happen.

I suspect we would find it hard to erect a statue to anyone if we were forensically examining them. How far do we take it?

davyK

Maybe statues have had their day.

Kow

There's a Margaret Thatcher Square in Madrid. Apparently it's the only street/square/etc in the world named after her (not sure of the veracity of that). It's located just as you enter Colon, which may be some multilingual meta joke.

Tempy

Like i’ve said a bunch of times - amendments to and removal of the statue were requested and prevented numerous times. If you’re to believe everything you read, - and I am at least skeptical as I try to find more info - the main driving force behind the refusal of alterations were bodies that existed thanks to Colston’s investment in Bristol. If that isn’t a conflict in interest that goes against what you’re suggesting you want these statues to say, then I dunno what else to say. What do people do? Keep ineffectually campaigning for something beyond their powers?

ZMM

I've got an idea what would look good. Reinstate the Colston statue, but place a small bronze statue of a crying slave child to the side of him. Or even have the slave child on top of the plinth, and Colston at the side. I dunno.

LarryDavid

Have Mr T next to him and a plaque saying: "I pity the fool who profits from the slave trade!"

EDIT: sorry, I have to reign in my urge to post silly, unhelpful idiotcy

mistercrayon

I think there’s some merit in them existing as a window of Britain’s past. A reminder that every nice coffee shop we have is not nice from nothing.

I think the compromise is to allow them to be abused over time - ie this was lauded at one point but this is what we think of it now. though and the message on them being a living piece or at least a fuller reflection of that life - warts and all - if that’s possible. Perhaps it would also mean in the future the statue gets cleaned if soc deems slavery acceptable again (I’ll be glad to be dead if that happens though)

ZMM

I think Bristol council maintained that yes he was part of the Royal African Company, but didn't have any direct involvement in slavery. Which is a bad argument.

Tempy

The plaque on Colston’s statue, for those wondering.

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Heading for Bristol’s Mayor in the matter

ZMM

LarryDavid wrote:

Have Mr T next to him and a plaque saying: "I pity the fool who profits from the slave trade!"

That would be epic.

Roujin

davyK wrote:

Roujin wrote:

The difference with things like Dachau or Hadrians Wall or the buildings that these racist philanthropists built is that they serve a purpose. Unlike the statues erected to the people that build them which fail to mention where the money came from, or that the people being praised for their generosity were only generous when it came to helping white people.

That is a point. But a statue is hard evidence - and it needs to be archived somehow with the original plaque as an example of how these people were thought of at the time. There's too much anger about at the minute. Anger I totally understand. But that cannot trump the need to keep these things as evidence to history. Change the statues, change the plaques. I'm totally with that. But keep the original as hideous as they are. We have to remind ourselves how we can be and continue to be really really awful to other people. Where do we keep it and how we access it - I do not know but I've a strong opinion that it should happen. I suspect we would find it hard to erect a statue to anyone if we were forensically examining them. How far do we take it?

This is great, but the statue to Colston is completely removed of any context with regard to his involvement in slavery. That's what Tempy keeps trying to tell you. People tried to get the coucil to update the plaque and were blocked, itself a clear indication of the systemic racism still at play today, seeking to supress the difficult truth about where british wealth came from for many individuals of that era.

I don't understand the mental gymnastics that are happening here. The statue of Colston is not an important historical artifact that needs to be retained. If it had the plaque on it saying he was a slave trader, then yes, it would be worth putting back where it came from, but that time has passed now and the people have spoken after being ignored for years by the local authorities. It is not the empty suitcases of Auschwitz.

Roujin

Also the statue was erected like 65 years after he died as well, so it was super rose tinted colonialism. Because 1895 is like 60 years after we abolished slavery.

ZMM

I do feel bad that I've walked past that statue many times. Had I actually taken the time to read the plinth, and research the history of the man... I mean it's clearly not ok that it was allowed to stay there. All of the black bristolians who had to walk past that, knowing that their ancestors were forcibly removed from their home and subjected to such horrors. Imagine not only living in a city that was built on the agony of your ancestors, but there still remained a statue honouring one of the men who orchestrated it? It's so appalling. I have changed my mind about seeking to prosecute the people who tore it down tbh.

ZMM

They should be let off. Or even apologised to.

nick_md

LivDiv wrote:

I liked Banksy's concept for the statue. Fish it out of the river, mount it in the plinth at 30 degrees. Then make statues of protestors next to it pulling it down. It degrades Coulston's memory and preserves history.

I like this idea.

Tempy

As for Gone With The Wind - yes, HBO Max have taken it out of the rotation, currently. They plan to reinstate it - uncut - when they feel they can accompany it with a discussion of the issues it raises. This is similar to how WB allowed Tom and Jerry to remain uncut on recent releases, as they were able to curate the collection with a statement about their understanding of the regressive nature of the depictions in them.

This is how you do history. You don’t leave things shorn of context. This is why books have forewords, collections of essays, entire courses dedicated to unpacking them at University.

It isn’t enough to just let history be something people can accidentally stumble on. Responsibility has to be taken to ensure it is clear. Colston’s statue did nothing of the sort, if anything, it actively obscured history.

Diluted Dante

davyK wrote:

I think we need to remember that slave owners were revered and had statues raised to them. These people existed in a community. They were part of our society - such as it was in the past. And they need to be kept as evidence. How that is accessed is for others to decide. I understand how revolting that is today. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.

The statue was put up 175 years after the cunt was dead.

Diluted Dante

davyK

Well shame on those who put it up then.

Again. At risk of belabouring my point.

People paid for that and had it erected. And that needs to be documented. How that is done is for historians or parties with a vested interest to decide.

That's all I've been saying.

GurtTractor

I definitely like the ideas about keeping some of these statues in a toppled or defaced state, I kind of like the idea of them being left on the ground for plants to grow partially over, with an appropriate plaque nearby. Or something with similarly powerful symbolism. We all need constant reminders of our ugliness, people forget stuff very easily.

davyK

Diluted Dante wrote:

What a ludicrous argument. This is about evidence.

LivDiv

If we are relying on a statue of a slave trader to to tell the story of Britian's slave strade then we have already horrifically failed.

davyK

LivDiv wrote:

If we are relying on a statue of a slave trader to to tell the story of Britian's slave strade then we have already horrifically failed.

Quite possibly.

Maybe there are documents. Maybe the statue provoked the research. People need evidence shoved in their face and keeping this stuff around is important.

LivDiv

In which case memorials and art installations are a much better approach. They provoke thought and consideration.
A statue is merely celebratory, it can be repurposed as in the Banksy suggestion but in it's current state it exists in the manner it was erected.

mistercrayon

LivDiv wrote:

If we are relying on a statue of a slave trader to to tell the story of Britian's slave strade then we have already horrifically failed.

People have already forgotten the bollocks that got hitler to smoothly and basically legally ascend to power.

Brooks

There's a more general conundrum here about how we retain and recall all sorts of historical moments in conditions where the sheer churn of information old and new has never been more vast and vigorous. One could suggest the ditching of the monuments creates its own monuments via the sheer amount of media created about the spectacle, but it's a single tale in billions and easily flicked over to the next.
Probably a good idea to update the space now it's empty with a new statue/memorial/explanatory plaque.

davyK

I can see an argument about the destruction of certain artifacts but it can only happen if sufficient evidence is kept. Things like statues, emblems, medals - nothing pushes the message more than stuff like that.

Maybe these statues should be destroyed but if that were to happen it make sense to have some sort of digital record kept - but that would be a compromise.

EDIT: heh... B posted similar thoughts just ahead of me there.

Brooks

Maybe a new bit of Madame Tussaud's called "The Hall of Shits".

LivDiv

The best solution to me is exactly that. Replace the statue with a memorial that remembers the victims as opposed to celebrating the villians.
That could include a plaque that explains that the statue once stood there but was replaced following the events of 2020 etc etc.

Even better I think if the statue can be folded into the memorial in an intellligent way, even if that is as small as being melted down and the material reused.

edit: Not Madame Tussaud's, fuck that over priced creep fest.

GurtTractor

Diluted Dante wrote:

While this is funny I don't think it holds up to much. We are all taught about Hitler in school, on TV and in films. He is a massive figurehead for the worst humankind is capable of, and as such doesn't need any physical reminders for him to remain fresh in our minds.

There are so many other figures in local and national history with ugly characters who did ugly deeds, we don't often hear about these apart from local history information in museums or occasionally in other media. Statues/monuments/artwork that show the truth about a variety of people that exist in all communities at all levels of society is more revealing than focusing on singular tyrants such as Hitler. Racist landlords/CEOs/business owners/presenters/bus drivers/etc all can cause significant harm, and it's important to remember that inolerance and discrimination is a trait that belongs to all of us.

So yeah let's keep some monumental reminders of these fucks, I think we can alter or rebuild them to reflect what we think of their outlook, toppling, belittling, championing the oppressed in comparison.

Also I'm a strong believer in embracing good ideas and thoughts even from awful people. Horrible people can have brilliant ideas, and vice versa, and it makes no sense to chuck away the baby with the bathwater.

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