Destiny 2 - Developed by Bungie - The Bear and Badger

Carbon_Altered

There really does seem to be a pattern here of people thinking the games they like / are good at require more "skill" than the ones they are less keen on. Ego-related maybe? Fair enough if so.

Personally (coming from the perspective of being equally crap at all games) I think the discussion of "skill" in one multiplayer game versus another is pointless. The people you are playing against determine the skill required to do well, surely? Therefore in games with a wider/general appeal it will be easier to do better at.

Yossarian

I don't know, I think that there is some merit when discussing similar games to discuss how skill levels compare. Going back to Mod's point about kill times earlier, surely a game where emptying a clip into someone guarantees a kill can be said to have a lower skill level to one in which you have to weaken someone and then score a headshot or get in close and hit them with a melee for the kill.

Carbon_Altered

Not if you're up against the same level of other players in both instances, as there will be the same number better at it than you / worse.

Also, "skill" is surely not just to be found in the kill mechanic? What about tactics, teamwork, map knowledge etc?

Jacuzzi_Jackson

I think it's naive to think no game or sport requires more skill to perform well at than any other but it's also so hard to quantify skill levels due to the plethora of different factors involved (not to mention the unavoidable subjectivity thats involved in comparing acts in terms of required skill) that it's impossible to reach any conclusions.

Just from a personal perspective i always found COD alot easier to get stuck into and start doing well at than Halo but i'm sure competing at a top tier level in either game requires a similar level of skill and concentration.

Funkstain

As someone else who has little to no skill in FPS games, I too am not sure about the discussion of relative skill in different types of FPS games, so I'll stick to personal preference of FPS type...

My experience of ADS FPS games (COD, MOH, BF) is that kill time (from spotting an enemy and beginning to aim and shoot, to killing that enemy) is very short compared to my experience of non-ADS FPS games (including TF2, Halo, Quake and UT). To be very specific, I'm talking about the use of utility weapons (no 1SK like shotgun or sniper), at short - medium - long range.

So even though, say, Q3A kill times are MUCH faster than, say, H3, they are still slower (on average!) than ADS FPS games, simply because the overall pace of the game is so much faster than ADS FPS games (which tend to be more realistic), allowing the enemy to often run away / escape before dying and losing all health.

Running away before dying, against any one of any competency in an ADS FPS game, is in most cases (in my experience) impossible.

The high-scoring strategy, therefore, in ADS games, is to learn maps very carefully and gain a deep understanding of positioning, likely enemy positioning, and then slow careful movement backed up by twitch aim-shooting. Or of course, die a LOT and respawn a LOT, which is also OK as long as you're taking 1/2 down with you every time.

In non ADS games, as per my experience, there is usually the ability to escape. Partially this is due to ADS not blocking / slowing down movement during a firefight, and partially the type of game (scifi or super humans, often, with big jumps, shields, and much faster base movement).

The high-scoring strategy here is less reliant on map learning (yes elite players will know the maps inside out, but even playing on a brand new map, decent players can still score big) and more reliant on understanding movement capability, both in terms of fire-fighting (strafing, jumping etc) and escaping (running fast, again jumping etc). You therefore tend to die and kill less often: average life-span is longer, which can sometimes encourage teamwork (if you're all alive longer, you can work together more effectively).

It is that latter style of play that I prefer, that's it really. So I hope that Bungie's next game is like that.

Yossarian

Carbon_Altered wrote:

Not if you're up against the same level of other players in both instances, as there will be the same number better at it than you / worse.

Not necessarily, especially at the higher tiers. If there is someone who is good at just shooting bullets at someone without having to worry about headshots for the kill, and another who's had to do both and they switched games, you'd expect that the person who has become good enough to score headshots regularly to do better at a game where that wasn't necessary than someone switching to a game where that was necessary.

To put it another way, I'd expect there to be more players at the top skill level in CoD than in Halo, but that those at the top level in Halo would be able to switch to CoD and compete at the top level in that, but not necessarily the other way around.

Mod74

That's just guesswork that mysteriously just happens to have the conclusion Halo players are more skilled than CoD ones.

Yossarian

It's actually the application of logic used to support a hypothesis rather than guesswork, but whatever.

Jacuzzi_Jackson

Isn't there a team of hardcore COD players and a team of hardcore Halo players from this forum that can just fight it out to settle this shit?

Knight

Mod74 wrote:

tigerswiftly wrote:

One of the biggest issues isn't so much ADS in and of itself, but that the system goes hand in hand with ultra-fast kill times. Ultra-fast kill times make it easier for people with bad and inconsistent aim to kill more people. I want games to have a firefight, goddammit. EDIT: Are there any games with ADS that don't have really fast kill times?

See, you say ultrafast, I say normal. Halo's is glacial to me. Leaving aside shotguns from a foot away and head shots from a sniper -I don't think many people would argue they shouldn't be 1 or 2 shot kills- then I think a medium range encounter with a medium range weapon should produce a from full health kill if every shot lands (regardless of body or head) without having to reload and without the assistance of explosives. Any game that lets you do that is normal to me, anything that takes longer is too long imo.

I see Mod74 is totting out the 3 year old arguments. Nonsensical then, nonsensical now.

nick_md

Rise of the Triad was the most skillful FPS.

tigersgogrrr

Jacuzzi_Jackson wrote:

Isn't there a team of hardcore COD players and a team of hardcore Halo players from this forum that can just fight it out to settle this shit?

That Halo team would have Dubs, Nexx, Knight, and NMD.

Fuck.

Tempy

@Nick Sorry I've already called Tribes as that.

Mod74

Knight wrote:

Mod74 wrote:

tigerswiftly wrote:

One of the biggest issues isn't so much ADS in and of itself, but that the system goes hand in hand with ultra-fast kill times. Ultra-fast kill times make it easier for people with bad and inconsistent aim to kill more people. I want games to have a firefight, goddammit. EDIT: Are there any games with ADS that don't have really fast kill times?

See, you say ultrafast, I say normal. Halo's is glacial to me. Leaving aside shotguns from a foot away and head shots from a sniper -I don't think many people would argue they shouldn't be 1 or 2 shot kills- then I think a medium range encounter with a medium range weapon should produce a from full health kill if every shot lands (regardless of body or head) without having to reload and without the assistance of explosives. Any game that lets you do that is normal to me, anything that takes longer is too long imo.

I see Mod74 is totting out the 3 year old arguments. Nonsensical then, nonsensical now.

It's not an argument, it's an opinion about game design.

The only thing nonsensical is your obsession with trolling my opinions.

Knight

I seem to have led us into a hornet's nest of blind alley retard forum debate but honestly I was NEVER talking about Halo vs COD skill level, I was purely talking about the aiming difficulty of an ADS system vs a non ADS system.

However, now we're into it... At the top level (competing for money top level) skill between Halo players and COD players seems to be pretty transferable. If you're a brilliant Halo player you'll also be great at COD and vice versa. Both games are played for money by 2 teams in mainly objective gametypes (Halo has TS too) and the better the individual player gets the more important teamwork becomes in both games.

Does one game have a higher skill ceiling (everyone knows what that means right?). Maybe, having never got close to that ceiling in either game I don't know. If you were to compare CE, the Halo game which is widely regarded as the game with the highest skill ceiling by those that should know, with whatever COD's best console offering is, I suspect Halo CE would be higher but I reckon the gap is WAAAY smaller when comparing the likes of 3/Reach and 4 with COD. Everything has gotten easier in Halo (not necessarily a bad thing in every instance as people like Face who has decent experience with every Halo game will be able to attest to)

Gotta bear in mind that the COD and Halo that most of us play lowers the skill ceiling somewhat. Things like kill streaks, AR starts e.t.c aren't particularly good at promoting the highest level of play possible.

Knight

@Mod74, it's nonsensical because I can kill with 4/5 shots (depending on the specific game) at mid range with my mid range weapon. I don't need a reload or a melee or grenades to do this, I just need to be able to aim.

tigerswiftly wrote:

Jacuzzi_Jackson wrote:

Isn't there a team of hardcore COD players and a team of hardcore Halo players from this forum that can just fight it out to settle this shit?

That Halo team would have Dubs, Nexx, Knight, and NMD. Fuck.

No Dubs, individually he's great but he was born a lone wolf and he'll die a lone wolf

nick_md

tigerswiftly wrote:

Jacuzzi_Jackson wrote:

Isn't there a team of hardcore COD players and a team of hardcore Halo players from this forum that can just fight it out to settle this shit?

That Halo team would have Dubs, Nexx, Knight, and NMD. Fuck.

I'm always grateful for the inclusion but I don't think I'd make the cut for bestest forum teamest these days

Still quite handy though.

Jacuzzi_Jackson

Would be interesting to see how it turned out. 3 games of halo and 3 games of COD. I would imagine Halo team would win all 3 Halo and team COD would win all COD. BUT IMAGINE IF THAT WASN@T THE CASE!

DRAMA!

Mod74

Knight wrote:

@Mod74, it's nonsensical because I can kill with 4/5 shots (depending on the specific game) at mid range with my mid range weapon. I don't need a reload or a melee or grenades to do this, I just need to be able to aim.

You're ignoring the bit I said about landing hits regardless of headshots or body.

And which gun is that with?

Diluted Dante

Mid range would be pistol, battle rifle or DMR depending on the game.

Mod74

So three scoped/ADS weapons then.

Yossarian

All three of which make most of their kills without using the scope.

tigersgogrrr

Shotgun has a scope too.

Funkstain

Mod74 wrote:

So three scoped/ADS weapons then.

Well, they can be scoped, but you'd be lucky to get more than the first shot / burst off before being knocked out (in H3 that is, H4 can suck a dick).

I know where this is going though - your hatred of Halo's assault rifle! It is a lot more powerful in H4, easily capable of killing at short-mid range with one clip and of course is incapable of head shots.

Shyam39

Funkstain wrote:

As someone else who has little to no skill in FPS games

Come on now, Nexx isn't that bad.

Diluted Dante

Mod74 wrote:

So three scoped/ADS weapons then.

You do understand that the scope on those weapons is used to extend the range, and isn't used in general gameplay right?

Compare that video to the distances involved in the next one where the scope is used:

Bollockoff

Tempy wrote:

Skill = blue plate special in Tribes 2. Holla at my man @bollockoff

It's pointless to bring it up. Deaf ears. Such a shame.

I'm gonna reinstall it I think.

Bollockoff

Actually nah. I'd get pwned.

Yossarian

Concept art for a Fallen tank:

I likes that.

M0stly harm13ss

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