The Next Next Gen Thread o/\o - The Bear and Badger

GurtTractor

Syph79 wrote:

It won’t be One X level, as the One X is capable of 4K output and puts out 6 teraflops from the gpu. The Lockhart spec is said to be a 4 teraflop gpu. I don’t know enough about these things, but people who do have said that’s the case. It’s a step backwards in terms of gpu output, hence the view it will do 1080p only, but will be more powerful/faster in terms of cpu and ssd.

You can't compare teraflops across different architectures and generations, new silicon will perform better than a simple 'flops comparison would suggest. I haven't looked too in depth as there's little point with unconfirmed rumours but I would very much wager that a new S would perform on par with the current One X -

It's basically going to be like having a two PCs of pretty much the same spec but with one having a cheaper GPU, not a bad idea at all for cost saving. The one thing I'm not sure about is the amount of RAM, I guess a lower end model would need less for VRAM as the texture settings would be reduced, but I don't know if only having 8GB would impact system performance in other ways.

Moot_Geeza

If the Lockheart launches at £199, and MS exclusives work on the current generation of consoles for a further two years, I can see myself being very happy only paying what, possible £170ish for a Lockheart in 2022? Until then my XboxOne S will suffice (on my 'full HD' television). MS seem all over the place with their SKUs but this one might actually work for me. I wouldn't even begrudge being forced into a purchase of a discless console because I'll only play the MS exclusives on game pass anyway (plus any tasty non-MS exclusives).

It's all very silly, but in a way that appears favourable to me at present. Why pay £450 for a superbox if my needs are catered for with a £200 scrubbox? It's all coming together nicely.

b0r1s

I get what G is saying, probably because I'm old too ;-)

But apart from phones what other hardware for consumers uses a sub model?

TV? No
Hi-Fi? No
Appliances? No

There are obviously loads of services, and we can see that is where MS want to go, but this transition period means they need to sell normal hardware that can compete, as we know from Stadia that cloud things are still a way off to replace actual consoles with a paid sub service.

Moot_Geeza

Plus if Lockheart is part of the 'Xbox family' going forward surely the comparatively nerfed exclusives will still run smoothly by order of the management?

RedDave2

b0r1s wrote:

I get what G is saying, probably because I'm old too But apart from phones what other hardware for consumers uses a sub model? TV? No Hi-Fi? No Appliances? No There are obviously loads of services, and we can see that is where MS want to go, but this transition period means they need to sell normal hardware that can compete, as we know from Stadia that cloud things are still a way off to replace actual consoles with a paid sub service.

Can you clarify the sub model thing there a bit. TV definitely does. HiFi definitely does. Appliances (fridges, Ovens etc.) definitely have tier list.

I think the main difference is consoles have a relatively low top-tier price. Series X and PS5 will be 500 to 600 euro tops.

The difference in a mid-level TV to tip-top level is thousands. Same with Hi-fi, fridges etc.

afgavinstan

I actually got my Bone through Bright House lol

b0r1s

I’m talking about this idea that you’ll lease your tv for two years and keep upgrading. As in a subscription model. You might use credit to buy it but that isn’t the same as the ongoing expectation that comes with a phone contract and what it seems ms are trying to copy.

LivDiv

TV and internet providers use a sub model for their hardware.

There really needs to be a service tied to a piece of hardware for it to work, otherwise it is just a finance deal.

afgavinstan

*hits blunt*

But isn't.... Life... Just a "finance deal"?? Eh? Isn't it? Isn't it not? Huh? Yeah man. Yeah.

LivDiv

Choose life
Choose a dog
Choose a fucking big Playstation

Syph79

I think the issue is that Xbox went into this generation with a confusing message about what it’s console was - Can you swap games? Is Kinnect necessary now? Tv Tv Tv! All of this was compounded by it costing more, and performing worse (at release at least). None of that diminishes your personal experience with Xbox One, but it was confusing and it impacted sales.

Going into this next generation, the vision may be clearer (one or two new consoles - one being the most powerful console on that market), but the messaging is still confused. The most powerful console doesn’t have any games to justify the price tag - because they’ll all work on your existing console(s). If you add in a less capable version of the Series X, which is less capable than the One X, it’s even messier.

I just don’t think it’s what Xbox needs, especially when PlayStation is already ahead in terms of mindset/sales and has a simpler message going into the next generation. Want to play this game? You need a PS5. You can question whether or not there’s a game to back that up yet, but it will come.

Want to play this game on Xbox? That’s great, you can play it on Xbox One S, Xbox One, Xbox One X, PC and now Xbox Series X! Fancy paying £400+ to play the best version of the game? No? Okay then.

To that end, the phone analogy is right, because Xbox has gone down the multiple handset route like Samsung, with a shared ecosystem. However, forcing that model in the face of a competitor that doesn’t operate that way, in my view, is daft.

That post ended up longer than I anticipated.

RedDave2

b0r1s wrote:

I’m talking about this idea that you’ll lease your tv for two years and keep upgrading. As in a subscription model. You might use credit to buy it but that isn’t the same as the ongoing expectation that comes with a phone contract and what it seems ms are trying to copy.

Ok, I get you. I misunderstood your point

LivDiv wrote:

TV and internet providers use a sub model for their hardware. There really needs to be a service tied to a piece of hardware for it to work, otherwise it is just a finance deal.

Which I'm guessing is what they want to do. The service is your microsoft account with gamepass, xbox gold and office 365 for your PC. Maybe they might have some other app based sub model to work on (They have a pretty extensive movie library there - I know they tried music but did they ever do a movie download service. €5 a month if bought with a gamepass sub?)

Syph79

GurtTractor wrote:

Syph79 wrote:

It won’t be One X level, as the One X is capable of 4K output and puts out 6 teraflops from the gpu. The Lockhart spec is said to be a 4 teraflop gpu. I don’t know enough about these things, but people who do have said that’s the case. It’s a step backwards in terms of gpu output, hence the view it will do 1080p only, but will be more powerful/faster in terms of cpu and ssd.

You can't compare teraflops across different architectures and generations, new silicon will perform better than a simple 'flops comparison would suggest. I haven't looked too in depth as there's little point with unconfirmed rumours but I would very much wager that a new S would perform on par with the current One X -

It's basically going to be like having a two PCs of pretty much the same spec but with one having a cheaper GPU, not a bad idea at all for cost saving. The one thing I'm not sure about is the amount of RAM, I guess a lower end model would need less for VRAM as the texture settings would be reduced, but I don't know if only having 8GB would impact system performance in other ways.

Still rumours, but the spec is said to be 10gb, with 7.5 usable after the OS.

My comparison wasn’t meant to be as blunt as saying One X 6TFL (good), Lockhart 4TFL (bad). It was more that, based on what I’ve read, folk shouldn’t expect 4K gaming on it - and to that end it isn’t a One X replacement.

GurtTractor

Another thought about about MS's strategy; it seems like they are going for a kind of 3-tiered approach for the next gen, something I saw in a QI episode where you have a high/mid/low product stack and the psychology of that leads to more people going for the middle option, can't remember the specific name for that effect.

Like you have the Series X with all the bells and whistles, with the claim of 'the fastest GPU/most flops' for a price that's out of reach for many. A low end One X that will be able to play new games but only guaranteed for a few years and not smoothly. And then the happy middle ground of the Series S which will do most of what the high end X can do but at a much more affordable price point.

I think MS will absolutely kill it with the S, it could be dead small and very quiet so a great option for many in tiny rooms, and it will be a very attractive option for those just wanting to play your CODs and FIFA's competitively with a smooth frame rate (assuming the devs scale the graphics and resolution appropriately which they should do). Especially considering this year where so many people will be a bit more financially worse off, a cheap next gen could sell like hotcakes. I could even imagine a lot of people opting for the cheap S initially, then picking up a PS5 later on for the juicy exclusives.

All this will need solid marketing and messaging, which is not MS's strong point. The savvy media will help them out a lot though I think, all someone who knows nothing about either machine will have do is search "xbox series s vs series x" and come across videos and articles that lay it out for them, and the conclusions to those articles will likely be that the S is a great value option compared to the X or PS5.

Time will tell but I do think it's a pretty great idea honestly.

Armitage_Shankburn

LivDiv wrote:

Choose life
Choose a dog
Choose a fucking big Playstation

Yas!

GurtTractor

Syph79 wrote:

Still rumours, but the spec is said to be 10gb, with 7.5 usable after the OS. My comparison wasn’t meant to be as blunt as saying One X 6TFL (good), Lockhart 4TFL (bad). It was more that, based on what I’ve read, folk shouldn’t expect 4K gaming on it - and to that end it isn’t a One X replacement.

Aye the focus probably won't be on 4K for the S, at least that's how they should be marketing it, as a 1080P/smaller screen machine. But it should be as good and better than the One X I think, so who knows how they'll get the messaging across..

I think we'll be surprised with how good it will look in comparison to the X, the reconstruction/sharpening techniques available should be used to great effect to get 4K output looking great. Side by side you might notice small differences in fidelity, but I bet if you went from one house with the X to another with the S you wouldn't be able to tell the difference 95% of the time.

Syph79

When companies launch a three tier option, they market one device and three options within the device (i.e. IPad 2020 model with 64, 128 or 256gb of storage). It’s still the same iPad though. They also market them all at the same time, whereas Xbox is just pushing the Series X right now and the whole idea of the three tier model is to make the consumer buy the middle one. That’s the one that just a rumour right now. If they are going down that route, they need to be getting the message out now, surely?

b0r1s

Best thing they could do is name it the Xbox Series Digital Edition. Same as the PS5 digital but cheaper. For people who don’t check specs it’s a simple comparison.

GurtTractor

Yep probably, but fuck knows what the marketing team is up to at the moment. Apparently announcements have been pushed back a bit.

g.man

Choose Life?

Syph79

Did you make that?

Armitage_Shankburn

g.man wrote:

Choose Life?

On the left, "should I buy an xbone or a ps5?"

On the right, "why did I choose xbone last week"

hunk

GurtTractor wrote:

It won’t be One X level, as the One X is capable of 4K output and puts out 6 teraflops from the gpu. The Lockhart spec is said to be a 4 teraflop gpu. I don’t know enough about these things, but people who do have said that’s the case. It’s a step backwards in terms of gpu output, hence the view it will do 1080p only, but will be more powerful/faster in terms of cpu and ssd.

You can't compare teraflops across different architectures and generations, new silicon will perform better than a simple 'flops comparison would suggest. I haven't looked too in depth as there's little point with unconfirmed rumours but I would very much wager that a new S would perform on par with the current One X - It's basically going to be like having a two PCs of pretty much the same spec but with one having a cheaper GPU, not a bad idea at all for cost saving. The one thing I'm not sure about is the amount of RAM, I guess a lower end model would need less for VRAM as the texture settings would be reduced, but I don't know if only having 8GB would impact system performance in other ways.

DF is spot on again.
It's curious how their simulated Lockhart Navi2 setup kindof delivers 1080p/60Hz for the popular current hi end AAA titles. That's definitely not a coincedence. MS doesn't want to place all of its next gen eggs into one sku hence Lockhart/Scarlett. Who knows, with the aftermath of Covid19 it's certainly a sensible strategy. Unless Sony's willing to go low, very low in price.

Lockhart (next gen seriesS) is obviously designed to match and eventualy replace xbox1x. Curious as to how this will play out in the long run. I can see the forum and hc gamers ignoring this release favoring seriesX/PS5 but as a strategic move this makes a lot of sense and might impact next gen in an unexpected manner.

mistercrayon

I doubt the One X will maintain its 4k status for output for games that are principally designed for Series X or PS5.

Or it will be 4K but the stuff will look like Bland cubes in comparison next to the true Next Gen stuff.

GurtTractor

Probably 4K but will run like crunchy peanut butter.

SonicBoomBoy

Armitage_Shankburn wrote:

g.man wrote:

Choose Life?

On the left, "should I buy an xbone or a ps5?"

On the right, "why did I choose xbone last week"

Xbox gonna kill it

TheBoyRoberts

Although folks have got used to the two tier setup this gen, its madness to start the next generation off with a two tier offering.

Its just a confusing message.

Where it gets even more confusing this the whole 4k thing. I'm digging deep into the memory banks, but I'm sure you can output to 4k on an xBox S and I'm sure you'll be able to on the Lockheart.

So, what you're left with is two consoles that run the same games, are both capable of a 4k output, but only one is capable of outputting natively at 4k.

All things other than the ability to natively render at 4k then I have no idea how you're going to market the systems?

Pondering on the next few years too; if Sony goes for the mid-gen pro upgrade on the PS5 (which if the difference between the two consoles is pronounced they may feel pressured into) how will MS respond? Release a upgrade of the Series X which leave 3 consoles in the MS family?

I can only hope that Lockheart is a diskless version of the Series X?

God help Nanas!! :-)

acemuzzy

They're explicitly not trying to "start the next generation off with a two tier offering", they're trying to eliminate the concept of generations. AIUI. At least in the sense you're meaning.

But yeah, they're not making that very clear I spose of even us lot are struggling to get it lol.

Syph79

Then just release one console and say that the One X will be supported for 1-2 years alongside the Series X. Or go for the mid-tier box only and carve a niche like Switch has. Don’t throw everything at the wall and see if any of it sticks.

There was a Eurogamer article yesterday about how Xbox publicly committed to the Xbox 20/20 plan of messaging - with one announcement each month. There was one in May, June has been silent, and the July event is said to now be in August. It’s a mess.

LivDiv

I think it is a bit harsh to say MS arent making stuff clear when we are the ones speculating on rumours.

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