Misogyny and other gender issues. - The Bear and Badger

Armitage_Shankburn

Andy wrote:

Kara_Jane_Addams wrote:

How exactly does one delete their account on here?

Something weird going on here.

Well I suspect it's my posts -if so I do apologise. I'm flouncing from the thread, so there's that.

Matt_82

It might be that Kara seems to have two accounts? Dunno if one is someone else pretending to be her.

poprock

Thought I’d share this because it’s an attempt to move the conversation on in a parallel industry.

Campaign, one of the UK ad industry magazines, is soliciting anonymous contributions for a new regular column sharing ‘difficult’ or taboo stories from the workplace.

https://www.campaignlive.co.uk/article/introducing-untold-stories-space-taboo-topics/1595253

The issue isn’t getting the stories – it’s getting people to go on record. While we continue to burn whistleblowers at the stake and threaten court action, this is unlikely to change.

The truth is, although names are necessary for change to occur at an individual level, as a collective we can learn from these stories without them.

So it’s an example of exactly the sort of thing some of you were talking about – sharing information within a relatively closed professional community, rather than out in public. Although you can bet that column eventually goes online too, opening it up to the world.

[Deleted User]

Matt_82 wrote:

It might be that Kara seems to have two accounts? Dunno if one is someone else pretending to be her.

Yeah, the one asking about account deletion has a differently spelled surname.

Dark Soldier

I can clarify it is the same person so no need to get worried

Diluted Dante

Ah, I did wonder why sometimes Kara had an avatar and sometimes didn't. This explains things.

cockbeard

Facewon wrote:

serial abuser

Quoted with no context as you may wish to redact that at some point as it's potentially libellous. I assume criminal proceedings had neither been sought nor completed

Can you or gonz highlight to me the plethora of examples of men who've been publicly and repeatedly alleged to have been dodge who've turned out to be upstanding citizens? Because apparently there's a long list, and we should definitely mostly erring on the side of disbelief in victims. facepalm etc.

For a start, that isn't what I fucking said. For a second thing, me. I was accused of rape once, and I spent a week thinking my career was over and I'd be going to jail where I'd learn how to be a cnut. She dropped the charges but not before I'd had to explain to my boss that I missed work due to having been arrested. I'm hardly an upstanding citizen no, but yo justifying dragging anyone's name through the mud because you think "they're probably a cnut anyway" is pretty flimsy, and not a little bit shit

I wasn't erring on any side, I was pointing out that your post might be considered libellous unless proceedings had already happened. I don't really see how you read anything more into the post, I didn't say anything more

cockbeard

djchump wrote:

So should bullies, abusers etc. never be outed?

To a global audience? Put them in the stocks so a few million people can point and laugh? Sure, that wont have any consequences.

Well, sure it can have consequences. Everything can have consequences. My problem is with your stance is that you seem to be suggesting that in cases where nothing strictly illegal has occurred, or cases where legal channels have failed or are unavailable, that the victims should quiet.

Everything has consequences, but bullies and abusers are enabled by silencing the victims, and that's how the cycle continues.

I get that part, however is twitter the medium through which you think justice should be applied? You ask what happens to victims where legal recourse has failed? Well what happens to victims who don't have 20k followers? There are places for democracy, and the older I get the more I think that place is actually the past. But even ignoring that I don't think legal decisions should be made by public vote

Tempy

I don't understand you've come to the conclusions Face's post is potentially libellous after multiple corroborations of Holowka having a long history of abuse, including his sister confirming he knew he had hurt many people but was looking for help to rectify and rehabilitate before he committed suicide.

cockbeard

Tempy wrote:

I don't understand you've come to the conclusions Face's post is potentially libellous after multiple corroborations of Holowka having a long history of abuse, including his sister confirming he knew he had hurt many people but was looking for help to rectify and rehabilitate before he committed suicide.

Because it was potentially libellous, and as a journalist I'd suggest you refresh yourself of the law. Calling someone a serial abuser with neither historical convictions, nor evidence of a continued campaign of abuse is libellous. It really is that simple

His sister make a statement that said a lot in your screenshot, but crucially it didn't include any admission of guilt. Therefore any further uncorroborated accusations regarding those same claims have the potential to be viewed as libel. My post wasn't a dig, nor a defence of anybody except a pre-emptive defence of Face himself. Asking face to be sure that he meant to write what he did, is a million miles from saying "Alec wouldn;t rape no-one, he was a top bloke, we ran a train on plenty of burds, especially the ones he worked with, hey all loved him, he wouldn;t need to abuse anyone he had fanny dripping off him"

Yossarian

You can’t libel the dead.

cockbeard

And I don't understand how you managed to ignore the final sentence in my response to Face

I might well be turning into a grumpy shit, and some of you really punch my buttons on occasion, but some of this shit is beyond ridiculous, and some of yous need your heads wobbling. If any of you have a separate narrative or filter you read my posts through, please include it when you quote or reply to me. It might add a context that I'm missing out on, would aid my comprehension

trippy

cockbeard wrote:

"Alec wouldn;t rape no-one, he was a top bloke, we ran a train on plenty of burds, especially the ones he worked with, hey all loved him, he wouldn;t need to abuse anyone he had fanny dripping off him"

Christ.

cockbeard

Fair enough then Yoss, in which case I stand corrected on the legal situation, and my attempt to warn Face was in vain

cockbeard

trippy wrote:

"Alec wouldn;t rape no-one, he was a top bloke, we ran a train on plenty of burds, especially the ones he worked with, hey all loved him, he wouldn;t need to abuse anyone he had fanny dripping off him"

Christ.

Smooth move, remove context, make it look like an actual opinion, maybe one that you think I hold, as opposed to one I'm quite obviously mocking, if the internal hypocrisy and self reference didn't convince you of that, then I hoped the fact I put it in quotation marks and prefaced the psuedo quote would

cockbeard wrote:

is a million miles from saying "Alec wouldn;t rape no-one, he was a top bloke, we ran a train on plenty of burds, especially the ones he worked with, hey all loved him, he wouldn;t need to abuse anyone he had fanny dripping off him"

I added the emboldening after the fact as it seems it got missed first time around

trippy

I'm not trying to be smooth, just Christing at your phrasing. Nothing personal, it just seemed a bit rank, especially given the context and thread.

Tempy

I dunno what I've done to piss you off other than comment on a situation I have informed myself about as best I can. I don't consider myself a journalist either. I write about games for a bit of cash on and off.

I have no idea what filter you're talking about either, I have no idea what the second part of your post is on about. All I did is say I didn't understand what he'd said that could be libel.

Apologies for missing the last part of your post, but you've jumped in to comment on something without the full picture either so I don't know why you're deciding everyone needs their heads wobbling or whatever.

Tempy

I always try and approach this stuff as openly and non-inflammatory as possible and it always seems to back fire on me. I dunno why I bother trying to be as polite as I can be with this stuff when everyone else just seems to come in with a grudge to bear.

Is it just because everyone else flips to hostile so easily that the assumption is that I am doing the same when asking a genuine question?

cockbeard

trippy wrote:

I'm not trying to be smooth, just Christing at your phrasing. Nothing personal, it just seemed a bit rank, especially given the context and thread.

Apologies, yes the phrasing was rank, and it was intended to be. To highlight the disgust inherent within the situation itself

Tempy wrote:

I dunno what I've done to piss you off other than comment on a situation I have informed myself about as best I can. I don't consider myself a journalist either. I write about games for a bit of cash on and off

Writing about anything for a bit of cash is exactly what a journalist does, you should give yourself more credit. You haven't especially pissed me off, I was pissed off with face feeling he needs to tell me about victims of abuse. To assume I had taken some contrarian position, when all I did was (mistakenly it appears according to Yoss) attempt to protect him from possible action. My response to you explained why I thought it could be considered alongside slander/libel etc. My comment about heads wobbling was more in general, not you necessarily

[Deleted User]

cockbeard wrote:

To assume I had taken some contrarian position, when all I did was (mistakenly it appears according to Yoss) attempt to protect him from possible action.

While I’m aware of one forum member having their posts read in court, that was because the other party knew it existed. Even disregarding the impossibility of it in this specific case, I find it highly unlikely that anyone here is at risk of being sued for libel for anything they’ve written.

Your post read more like a knee-jerk reaction than a legitimate offer of advice. In your personal circumstances I can understand why, but I don’t think we need to pursue that avenue any more.

trippy

cockbeard wrote:

I'm not trying to be smooth, just Christing at your phrasing. Nothing personal, it just seemed a bit rank, especially given the context and thread.

Apologies, yes the phrasing was rank, and it was intended to be.

No worries, sorry for not being clearer myself. It's a sensitive subject and the words felt too crude.

cockbeard

trippy wrote:

cockbeard wrote:

I'm not trying to be smooth, just Christing at your phrasing. Nothing personal, it just seemed a bit rank, especially given the context and thread.

Apologies, yes the phrasing was rank, and it was intended to be.

No worries, sorry for not being clearer myself. It's a sensitive subject and the words felt too crude.

No problem, I used extreme words to distance myself from the caricature I felt I was accused of being

Tempy

cockbeard wrote:

trippy wrote:

I'm not trying to be smooth, just Christing at your phrasing. Nothing personal, it just seemed a bit rank, especially given the context and thread.

Apologies, yes the phrasing was rank, and it was intended to be. To highlight the disgust inherent within the situation itself

Tempy wrote:

I dunno what I've done to piss you off other than comment on a situation I have informed myself about as best I can. I don't consider myself a journalist either. I write about games for a bit of cash on and off

Writing about anything for a bit of cash is exactly what a journalist does, you should give yourself more credit. You haven't especially pissed me off, I was pissed off with face feeling he needs to tell me about victims of abuse. To assume I had taken some contrarian position, when all I did was (mistakenly it appears according to Yoss) attempt to protect him from possible action. My response to you explained why I thought it could be considered alongside slander/libel etc. My comment about heads wobbling was more in general, not you necessarily

Well, that's fine. I give myself exactly the credit I believe I deserve. I don't think of myself as a journalist.

Facewon

All good and apologies cock.

Good context and happy to take your points in the context you've outlined.

hunk

Pls stop chasing the noobies away Gonz.

Facewon

https://link.medium.com/0uUCHs6MGZ

Ooof. Just a brutal story.

(long read by the other guy who made night in the woods.)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/03/the-myth-of-the-free-speech-crisis

This is good too. Tangent in here, but interesting in terms of discussion around mobs etc.

Tempy

Yeah I'd just finished reading Benson's post. Fairly harrowing story. All told. A tragedy he could never quite get things together, and a tragedy that he impacted so many people's lives so negatively. I often wonder about that myself, what the cost of various relationships really is on both sides. In the end it seems like Alec knew the weight of his actions but was not prepared for it to all catch up.

Vela

https://medium.com/@bombsfall/alec-2618dc1e23e

Vela

Oh, same article.

Vela

If that is a comprehensive account it appears someone should have been in a ward for their own care rather than in the industry.

A pretty damning indictment on the state of mental health services in that region.

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