Super Street Fighter 4: Cross-up Tatsu Wake-up Ultra edition. - The Bear and Badger

Brooks

Exactly, is a waste of player resources and as you suggest, an impediment to real flow of intention and choice. Cancelling too was an exploit once upon a time but it's been successfully rationalised into the format, to my mind.

Smang

they're no quirk in sf4. the game was designed to have them. ergo you are debating the design of sf4, not links per se.

other games like kof are designed to have them as well, maybe at first they were quirks but they are an active part of the design now so the balance is not an issue. or shouldn't be, at least.

and why should you open up the games for people who can't do 1f links? i can't keep a football up in the air for more than 3 seconds so why should i play football for england?

and dropping combos - it's part of the whole game. you want to see that player keep his cool to land something difficult. i want to see Diago, J Wong etc do incredible shit i can't do.

if combos were easy and never droppable that would be even more boring to watch. Hi marvel.

Brooks

It's sort of hilarious to me know that the whole engine-exploit armsrace that ensues whenever a new fightman arrives is literally called 'technology' by the communities.

Brooks

Fightgame is not footy.

I want to see major tactical errors, not banana-peel slips.

Comboing is boring if the system permits massive ones so yeah, hi MvC

Smang

i also hate "technology" and "im going to hit the lab"

top professional footballers also blast the ball over the bar from in front of an open goal. my analogy is sound.

Brooks

Guess I just implicity resent psychical prowess being allowed to be a factor in videogames, and especially a mechanic - planned or otherwise - that advantages a tiny slither of the population so explicitly.

It's not like the top players would be any worse for the absence of another layer of minutae (nor are they immune to dropping simpler techniques). Anyway, talk is talk.

Roujin

Brooks that's like a football player saying they resent smart players being able to read and make better passes than the stupid ones.

fullspectrum

Seth Killian is on record as saying they weren't intended in IV. Unfortunately I saw that in an interview years ago so a soure isn't to hand.

I agree they knew they were there and left them in, they chose not to remove them, but they would mean they are still the result of other systems that were deliberately implemented.

and why should you open up the games for people who can't do 1f links?

To make it less exclusive, to open up the enjoyment of the game to more people, to get them to the stratergy layer, to ultimately grow the fanbase, increassing the range and style of competition, to ultimately make everyone better players.

i can't keep a football up in the air for more than 3 seconds so why should i play football for england

You shouldn't. Bing able to keep a footy up doesn't make you an amazing player. You need all other kinds of things to be that. Some would argue that footises, mindgames and matchup knowledge are more important and ultiamtely more exciting to witness than links. I can watch combo vidoes for those afterall.

and dropping combos - it's part of the whole game. you want to see that player keep his cool to land something difficult. i want to see Diago, J Wong etc do incredible shit i can't do.

You could do any of the combos they can (I mean, you spend more time in training than anyone I know which is a cool way to study the game, that I respect, but isn't something I personally can concentrate on for long but I do take your point here - it blows me away to see new combos in tourneys at clutch moments. The thing is, how often do Wong Diago miss them, like nearly never right? If they do you know they're better than that. So why not let them land it EVERY time, and give the intermidiates that part of the game to play with too?

Brooks

Nah. Not least because you can't handicap smarts without alcohol or something.

I don't expect to win this argument, would need to be demonstrated in an actual title. Sure, there's a loss of friction if we strip away all executional challenge, and I'd resist that, but my sensation is that the format has generally drifted unfortunately into the baroque, and I'd like a shift in schools if not actual atavism.

rickjoyce

Jimmy The Lips wrote:

I am going to be utter gash at this btw... Â haven't played a SF game for many many many years. Â I think I was a teenager, which is longer ago than I care to admit.

I just started playing a couple months ago Jimmy, would be happy to spar with ya.

Smang

Nick wrote:

Seth Killian is on record as saying they weren't intended in IV.

i doubt it, for one the character trials are rife with them.

To make it less exclusive, to open up the enjoyment of the game to more people, to get them to the stratergy layer, to ultimately grow the fanbase, increassing the range and style of competition, to ultimately make everyone better players.

i dunno how exclusive sf4 is. i've played some pretty bad players, plus i'm allowed to play! not being able to do 1f links does not exclude you from this game, not at all. opening shit up, andÂ helpingÂ new players is what gave us sfxt and the gem fiasco.

to help new players give them proper tutes. Blazblue did this amazingly well and didn't really get any credit for it. hand-holding does not make better players.

You shouldn't. Bing able to keep a footy up doesn't make you an amazing player. You need all other kinds of things to be that. Some would argue that footises, mindgames and matchup knowledge are more important and ultiamtely more exciting to witness than links. I can watch combo vidoes for those afterall.

this is exactly what im saying, you dont need 1f links.

and dropping combos - it's part of the whole game. you want to see that player keep his cool to land something difficult. i want to see Diago, J Wong etc do incredible shit i can't do.

Â

You could do any of the combos they can (I mean, you spend more time in training than anyone I know which is a cool way to study the game, that I respect, but isn't something I personally can concentrate on for long but I do take your point here - it blows me away to see new combos in tourneys at clutch moments. The thing is, how often do Wong Diago miss them, like nearly never right? If they do you know they're better than that. So why not let them land it EVERY time, and give the intermidiates that part of the game to play with too? [/quote]

but if those combos were 100% guaranteed everytime, i reckon it would get hella boring pretty fast.

Brooks

In any case, the key thing would be not to tell anyone outside the team you were stuffing links in-engine before it hit the public, so as to maximise hardcorz/theory fighta impotent fury.

Pulling the random trip nonsense Ninty did with the last Smash Bros wouldn't be on though, that was born of malice.

Crispy

Let's take this idea of removing the "execution barrier" to the extreme.Â Let's say, for lack of a better idea, you can have auto-combos (e.g. the much reviled SFxT has a mechanic where you can press two buttons and it will execute a combo on your behalf).Â

Arguably this would allow the player to focus almost entirely on the meta game and put all of their attention on reading the opponent, prediction and analysis (and maybe some reactions).Â

Would this make the game a more level playing field?Â Yes probably.Â But would this make for a more fun game?

I'm not taking one side or the other here.Â Just trying to explore this topic further and spur some discussion.

Brooks

As I typed early, I wouldn't be for total frictionlessness, because they tried that with CvS2 EO and it wasn't tremendously satisfying.

That stated, I look at the still cruelly unreleased Nidhogg which has a very tight palette of maneuvers and it looks fun as balls.

fullspectrum

Yes B, that was evil and destroyed the community (smash).

1f links haven't destroyed IV, the community is still strong. It has many problems and I think the way 1f links separate two equally smart players by a huge gulf is one, but it doesn't stop me loving it.

Ok my last point to consider on links. People use this plinking technique to turn them into 2f links anyway. So why not make them 2 and remove the need for that technique? Is there 'depth' in hitting the buttons a different, harder to do, way?

Crispy

The big question then is where do you put "friction" into a fighting game?Â

If we remove the 1 frame links in favour of 2's or 3's does it then become a slippery slope?Â Does the next execution barrier post-1-framers then become a point of frustration of the masses where they demand its removal ad infinitum essentially leaving us with CvS2 or... Chess?

Personally speaking, I'm fine with 1-framers.Â They remain the preserve of the truly dedicated and if you put in the time you should be rewarded with the big damage.Â The beauty with fighting games is that you can get by just fine without them anyway.Â Arturo frequenly mentions how poor his execution is, which is why he plays sim.Â There's something for every type of player in SF.

Jimmy The Lips

rickjoyce wrote:

Jimmy The Lips wrote:

I am going to be utter gash at this btw... Â haven't played a SF game for many many many years. Â I think I was a teenager, which is longer ago than I care to admit.

I just started playing a couple months ago Jimmy, would be happy to spar with ya.

Quality! Â Will let you know when my new stuff turns up :-)

mk64

i've only skimmed this but Nick is on rocky ground

It might be taking it to an extreme but your posts on the previous page about making it "accessible" and being all about the tactics of landing the combo everytime is spot on and would make the game more interesting imo.

But.. I suggested that playing SSFIV3D using the shortcuts is one of the most interesting and pure ways to play SF I can think of. And you didn't like it at all!

Crispy starts intimating the "slippery slope"..

The reality for me is that if i could play using my brain with perfect inputs i know i'm a better player (comparitively) than I am when I just rely on my skills and input technique.

fullspectrum

Yeah I think this debate has been about since at least '09, prolly before!

The conclusion is that you can't please everyone, that much we can say for sure, but for each individual you have to ask: do want to preserve the small top percentile of players, or do you want to expand that pool and see how fundamentals being more important than excecution affect tournament placing?

I appreciate and accept everyone's posts on this, as this isn't a clear example of a design decision being 'wrong', like bad button config screens (HDR is right, IV is wrong). This is more subjective than that.

Edit: 3DS isn't real SF so doesn't count : )

Roujin

I would just like to point out that Tekken has no links, a much lower execution barrier and is pretty much all about the fundamentals of controlling space, footsies and using knowledge for both defense and opening players up for offence.Â

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hylian_elf

What's a 1f link???

Just kidding. I can't do them. Looks amazeballs when someone else pulls them off though and its enjoyable watching a decent match with two players that can pull off anything. I wouldn't take them out purely cos of that. There are always going to be gulfs between players in terms of ability and as long as you're playing someone of similar ability to you, it should be fine. Right?

I miss this game.

ChopperByrne

Eh pretty certain Tekken does have links, unless launchers are cancelling into juggles now.

Tempy

Jimmy The Lips wrote:

rickjoyce wrote:

Jimmy The Lips wrote:

I am going to be utter gash at this btw... Â haven't played a SF game for many many many years. Â I think I was a teenager, which is longer ago than I care to admit.

I just started playing a couple months ago Jimmy, would be happy to spar with ya.

Quality! Â Will let you know when my new stuff turns up

I would totally be up for mashing my pad like a moron with equally inexperienced folk.

Roujin

Yeah but 'linking' moves in a juggle is inputting the command and having the move come out before the opponent falls to far to be hit by the move you just inputted. Although this technically means that there are juggles where you have 1 frame to input the command, they are not required in order to be excellent with a character and there are only a handful of characters who even have them. There is no linking of moves in open play in Tekken and launchers are slower than jabs so to get launched in the first place you have technically fucked up pretty badly.Â

They are a means to squeeze a few more points of damage out of a juggle. You have to have first launched someone and you can't combo into a launcher in Tekken unless you have a string that ends in a launcher, and even then those launch enders are only guaranteed on counterhit. You can block them normally Â even if the first hits of the string have connected.

In SF links allow players to get damage from hitting people with stuff like 3f jabs.

rickjoyce

Tempy wrote:

Jimmy The Lips wrote:

rickjoyce wrote:

Jimmy The Lips wrote:

I am going to be utter gash at this btw... Â haven't played a SF game for many many many years. Â I think I was a teenager, which is longer ago than I care to admit.

I just started playing a couple months ago Jimmy, would be happy to spar with ya.

Quality! Â Will let you know when my new stuff turns up

I would totally be up for mashing my pad like a moron with equally inexperienced folk.

I've been playing with a stick for a few days now and I just can't get used to it, I'm able to do way more with the shitty pad, but I hardly ever went to arcades so I guess it makes sense. Still, I'll persevere for now cause there is stuff like airborne spinning kicks that I can't pull off with the pad. I really wish there was more feedback in the training modes for the combo timing, it's starting to wreck my head.

Brooks

Thing is there are players that can basically coast on execution all day and so are never actually tested. Like, that's been my experience in J-side arcades - rote legends, but they're on total autopilot tactically. Impactor 2.0, who used to post 'round here (well, not here here), was ever keen to point this out and he was dead right.

Brooks

They remain the preserve of the truly dedicated and if you put in the time you should be rewarded with the big damage.

To me, this is getting ickily into RPGish grind territory. This shit should never be Work.

I appreciate that many sports involve drills, but I mean this is a virtual context - if we can eliminate some of the onerous ones, and we can, we oughta.

Roujin

If they remove the ability for practicing to achieve top execution, then everyone will just spend their time reading up on the best strategies instead to give them the advantage. The work/grind element will still exist.

Brooks

Yeah but I don't hate that flavour as much.

Jimmy The Lips

rickjoyce wrote:

Tempy wrote:

Jimmy The Lips wrote:

rickjoyce wrote:

Jimmy The Lips wrote:

I am going to be utter gash at this btw... Â haven't played a SF game for many many many years. Â I think I was a teenager, which is longer ago than I care to admit.

I just started playing a couple months ago Jimmy, would be happy to spar with ya.

Quality! Â Will let you know when my new stuff turns up

I would totally be up for mashing my pad like a moron with equally inexperienced folk.

I've been playing with a stick for a few days now and I just can't get used to it, I'm able to do way more with the shitty pad, but I hardly ever went to arcades so I guess it makes sense. Still, I'll persevere for now cause there is stuff like airborne spinning kicks that I can't pull off with the pad. I really wish there was more feedback in the training modes for the combo timing, it's starting to wreck my head.

I am happy to be anybodies punchbag whilst I am learning my way. Â The stick doesn't bother me too much as I haven't played an SF game for so long it shouldn't harm me too much with my early learning as it were

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