General Games News - The Bear and Badger

afgavinstan

Enough for a new thread here, eh? A very #on #trend issue.

Access to the thread though can only be found via a Platinum Jumbo Moran Thread Barrel. Yours for 150 Plornt.

g.man

I like the idea of Badger currency being Plornt. *thumbs up*

nick_md

What are the thoughts on systems that mitigate the chance factor in gacha? So I'm thinking of things like:

- Guaranteed top drops ("guaranteed to get shiny car/gun/character or whatever on your Xth box/crate/pull if you have not received one. Receiving one resets your guarantee counter")

- Dusting system, so even things you don't want retain some value and can be traded/dusted to count up to stuff you do want

monkey

Verecocha wrote:

@Monkey, I entirely understand your point of view that some may be taken advantage of, but isn’t that the case with anything and everything in the entire world? Where does the book stop? How do you police those matters and if said policing is possible how important is DLC loot boxes if something could indeed be done? I work as a Prison Officer and all day I have to listen to people moaning about how it’s not their fault etc etc, yes that is at the very far end of the scale, but if people have issues then they need to address them however difficult. If overspending on in game currency happens to be an issue then in the grand scheme of things that’s absolutely fine with me, spend £14,000 on in game purchases (don’t believe that at all) hopefully they’ll learn something from it. If they don’t, I’ll have very very little sympathy for them as there’s much much worse going on than people fighting personal difficulties purchasing in game content boosters. That may seem harsh and everybody’s own personal fight is at the top of their scale, but the real world scale is very different. Perhaps not fully backed, but by the majority, or potentially a minority spending a very large amount each, either way it’s how the world works and the backing these things are getting makes them more than worthwhile. So people playing these games on mobiles weren’t gamers? And I’d also take the route of the massive success of them in increments as asking for them. Not literally writing a letter, but buying up every iteration is asking for more of the same and potentially more. All they did was answer the buyers. Again, it’s the same in everything.

This is one of those things that comes down to where you want to draw the line. Individual responsibility vs harm reduction is one those things that cuts across all sorts of stuff. Where do you draw the line on welfare payments, loan sharks etc? (That's rhetorical, I'm not expecting you to answer that). In the end the line just gets drawn at a point that the most people can live with.

This triple A stuff is over that notional line for me. The Rocket League aesthetic stuff is just about on it. I don't like it but it doesn't affect the game, I understand the devs are working in a competitive market and they could go belly up at any point. I'd still like some sort of control there though. Limits on purchases or something. I don't think the situation is simple but the Forza example does seem pretty clear that they've gone too far.

Diluted Dante

Vere, that post suggests your thoughts are "fuck vulnerable people, it's their own fault". That's surely not what you mean to say?

Nick, the best solution is sell things directly if you're going to have a system of IAP. It cuts out a lot of (though not all) issues.

Vela

nick_md wrote:

Yeah he has a problem. Is it not the same as anything tho? Gambling, drink, drugs? Most do so sensibly, some suffer. What's the answer?

Loot boxes and gambling aren't the same thing, but they exploit the same psychological weaknesses as each other. Loot boxes also exist on digital platforms where the vendor offers to save your credit card details for convenience for you.

If you're succeptible to that compulsive behaviour, they are equally evil practices. If you're not succeptible then congratulations, you're not the target audience.

Yossarian

FWIW, I find RL’s implementation worse than Forza’s. RL hands you a prize then asks for money to access it, Forza provides a separate option to purchase something that you don’t have using a different currency.

Edit: Monkey.

g.man

nick_md wrote:

What are the thoughts on systems that mitigate the chance factor in gacha? So I'm thinking of things like: - Guaranteed top drops ("guaranteed to get shiny car/gun/character or whatever on your Xth box/crate/pull if you have not received one. Receiving one resets your guarantee counter") - Dusting system, so even things you don't want retain some value and can be traded/dusted to count up to stuff you do want

Fuck it all!

Verecocha

Diluted Dante wrote:

Vere, that post suggests your thoughts are "fuck vulnerable people, it's their own fault". That's surely not what you mean to say?

Nick, the best solution is sell things directly if you're going to have a system of IAP. It cuts out a lot of (though not all) issues.

No of course not dude, not at all. I just think the vulnerable people argument could and should be put towards everything, and if you do that then everything falls down, from loot boxes to supermarkets to everything and anything. So if that’s going to be the main argument then it can be for every marketplace in the world and protection is next to impossible without limiting/destroying an open market. It’s not something exclusive to the gaming market at all.

That’s all I meant dude.

Vela

I'm with gman on this.

And fuck any argument (not you, @Vere, just the argument) which hinges on "it's a business so any practice is ok if it makes money".

Great harm is done by businesses just making money.

poprock

g.man wrote:

I like the idea of Badger currency being Plornt. *thumbs up*

How many Plornts to a Chalice?

Yossarian

I posted this in the tech thread the other week:

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/oct/05/smartphone-addiction-silicon-valley-dystopia

The psychological tricks and appeal to certain mindsets is exactly the same with lootboxes as with websites, we’ve simply learnt enough about human psychology to make things compulsive.

There are issues here, but lootboxes seem a small aspect of it to me.

poprock

I wouldn’t have heard of loot boxes if it weren’t for this thread.

Verecocha

Vela wrote:

I'm with gman on this.

And fuck any argument which hinges on "it's a business so any practice is ok if it makes money".

I’d say fuck your reductionist and rather insulting paranoid idea that the target audience are merely those psychologically weak and susceptible to compulsive behaviour.

Mothercare, Tesco and Charities will also save your credit card details for your convenience too.

Vela

Verecocha wrote:

I'm with gman on this. And fuck any argument which hinges on "it's a business so any practice is ok if it makes money".

I’d say fuck your reductionist and rather insulting paranoid idea that the target audience are merely those psychologically weak and susceptible to compulsive behaviour. Mothercare, Tesco and Charities will also save your credit card details for your convenience too.

Do Tesco sell random boxes of stuff, or do they let you buy what you want?

Make a better analogy.

JonB

poprock wrote:

I wouldn’t have heard of loot boxes if it weren’t for this thread.

It's a new thing to me as well. Guess I don't play those sorts of games. But it's clearly a rancid practice purely designed to get people to pay more money than they normally would for the extra bits they might want in a game. No idea why anyone would excuse/defend it.

Yossarian

I saw one person arguing that Kinder Eggs are an equivalent to loot boxes. Free gifts in cereal boxes would be tickling similar psychological impulses too.

Edit: Vela.

Verecocha

Vela wrote:

Verecocha wrote:

I'm with gman on this. And fuck any argument which hinges on "it's a business so any practice is ok if it makes money".

I’d say fuck your reductionist and rather insulting paranoid idea that the target audience are merely those psychologically weak and susceptible to compulsive behaviour. Mothercare, Tesco and Charities will also save your credit card details for your convenience too.

Do Tesco sell random boxes of stuff, or do they let you buy what you want?

Make a better analogy.

You were insinuating these evil, evil satanic people saved your details making it so much easier for those poor weak susceptible individuals to make purchases via digital platforms, I was merely highlighting the fact that every vendor does it. So I needn’t make a better analogy at all.

Though it’s clear you’re behind as you stated:

Vela wrote:

Things are looking bleak when the main focus of development seems to be on monetisation through skinner boxes rather than on how to make a game good.

When the three games we’re talking about here have or will review very well and are very good games.

nick_md

JonB wrote:

It's a new thing to me as well. Guess I don't play those sorts of games. But it's clearly a rancid practice purely designed to get people to pay more money than they normally would for the extra bits they might want in a game. No idea why anyone would excuse/defend it.

How do you feel about their presence in FTP games?

Yossarian

Loot boxes are very easy to deal with, we just need to convince consumers of games that new releases should cost two or three times what they currently cost. Do that and I’m sure loot boxes will disappear.

poprock

Don’t be silly. Publishers/developers won’t remove an extra revenue stream, whatever the cost of the original product. If they can increase profits they will.

The only way loot boxes disappear is if people just don’t buy them. It’s an experiment in bringing in more money. If it doesn’t prove hugely popular, it will die a death.

Yossarian

There’s a reason why they were searching for extra revenue streams in the first place.

afgavinstan

Take it to the streets,
lads.

poprock

Yossarian wrote:

There’s a reason why they were searching for extra revenue streams in the first place.

Yes, because we live in a capitalist society.

I get where you’re coming from, but correlation is not causation in this case. Businesses are always looking for more ways to make more profit, especially large ones and ones with shareholders.

poprock

afgavinstan wrote:

Take it to the streets, lads.

Well played Gav.

Diluted Dante

Verecocha wrote:

Diluted Dante wrote:

Vere, that post suggests your thoughts are "fuck vulnerable people, it's their own fault". That's surely not what you mean to say? Nick, the best solution is sell things directly if you're going to have a system of IAP. It cuts out a lot of (though not all) issues.

No of course not dude, not at all. I just think the vulnerable people argument could and should be put towards everything, and if you do that then everything falls down, from loot boxes to supermarkets to everything and anything. So if that’s going to be the main argument then it can be for every marketplace in the world and protection is next to impossible without limiting/destroying an open market. It’s not something exclusive to the gaming market at all. That’s all I meant dude.

But we do put protections in place in other marketplaces.

Yossarian

afgavinstan wrote:

Take it to the streets,
lads.

Verecocha

Diluted Dante wrote:

Verecocha wrote:

Diluted Dante wrote:

Vere, that post suggests your thoughts are "fuck vulnerable people, it's their own fault". That's surely not what you mean to say? Nick, the best solution is sell things directly if you're going to have a system of IAP. It cuts out a lot of (though not all) issues.

No of course not dude, not at all. I just think the vulnerable people argument could and should be put towards everything, and if you do that then everything falls down, from loot boxes to supermarkets to everything and anything. So if that’s going to be the main argument then it can be for every marketplace in the world and protection is next to impossible without limiting/destroying an open market. It’s not something exclusive to the gaming market at all. That’s all I meant dude.

But we do put protections in place in other marketplaces.

Which are?

djchump

You don't put Fruit Machines in primary schools. etc. etc.

Verecocha

Gonna miss Gaf, don’t think it’ll be coming back this time.

Howdy, Stranger!

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