It's like poetry. 

It's shit.

monkey wrote:

Empire Strikes Back - Rebels defending base from Empire on ice planet, Empire then chases rebels around, Jedi training sequences, diversion into exotic mining city, betrayal, light saber fight. End.  The Last Jedi - Space fight, Empire then chases rebels around, Jedi training sequences, diversion into exotic gambling city, Return of the Jedi throne room complete with Sith apprentice killing master to save life of young Jedi, betrayal, Rebels defend base from Empire on salt planet, light saber fight. End.

Let's go deeper than that. Hot headed young hero seeks jedi master on remote planet. disappointed to find a grumpy old weirdo, who isn't the great warrior hero they were hoping for "war not make one great, hmm?". master initially refuses to train but is convinced. young hero faces a 'dark cave' and gets a vision that hints at their lineage. young hero leaves to face dark helmet before completing training in order to save their friends. jedi master never leaves planet, despite previous episodes showing they were previously a mighty warrior.
And well, if you want to pretend that the Crait/Krait(?) battle isn't almost exactly the same as Hoth well...

Palps returning was a poor concept but really saved the movie for me. It was a lost cause anyway so may as well have McDiarmid hamming it up.

Dunno if this has been posted before. An autopsy of the throne room fight from Last Jedi. Basically how rubbish it is and taking the piss. I’m about 20 minutes in and enjoying it. 

That analysis has been done a ton of times over in the years since the movie.

Most fight scenes in movies have a bunch of dudes hanging around doing nothing. All but the absolute best will feature this and certainly anything where the protagonist is out numbered heavily. The best scenes hide it well through editing.

If you are into this though definitely check out Corridor Channel's "Stunt men react" videos on youtube.

Edit: that video is an hour long? Why? I'm not watching a fucking hour of that.
Then it appears to be narrated by some Hoorah Henry. Jesus christ.

I'm watching this Disney+ doc on Mando.
Now first off everything Disney+ is puff piece, that has to be a given.

What this doc screams though is that they had a group of directors, headed up by a master director in Favreau and that they all had a passion for Star Wars.

That is the complete opposite to the scenario around the latest trilogy.

A passionate colaberative team has always delivered the best of Star Wars on and off screen.

superflyninja wrote:

monkey wrote:

The new trilogy only had TFA that did what it was supposed to. TLJ then sliced off all those plot strands. Not only that but it did without any care for anyone that was interested in seeing how they developed. It was insulting really. And it set up nothing. This weapons dealer stuff was nothing. There’s no plot there. Nothing to take forward. The big bad was killed off, leaving a highly defeatable second in command behind him. Now it’s not impossible to make a decent one-off Star Wars film from that position. What is very fucking hard, imo, is to make a satisfactory end to a trilogy. Going into TLJ I was genuinely interested in where they’d take the story. With tRoS, I had no interest in the story going into it. Because there was no story left to tell.

Totally agree with this. Also, this shit about the arms dealers. It's been established in Rogue One and the TV show Rebels that the empire was designing and manufacturing it's own weapons anyway. Completely pointless direction IMO. Exchanging one baddie for another. Oooh the real enemy was capitalism all along, not the megalomaniacal emperor that wanted total domination by any means necessary. FFS. And I quite like the Jedi tbh. There can be plenty of scope for grey with Jedi and Sith. My biggest problem with TLJ is that it stripped out ideas and plots but added nothing of interest in place. Nothing at all. The main plot of the movie itself was rubbish. The space chase was so badly thought out. It made zero sense. Gaaaaahhh I hate that movie.

I was going to offer a rebuttal to this but ah fuck it, why bother? I'm no star wars fan so its a fair comment that TLJ failed in pleasing the fan base who wanted Jedi and the emperor. Personally, I don't see the appeal, I think its not only been done by star wars but also by a huge amount of similar movies. 

I do agree that the space chase wasn't really well thought out. So lets agree on that.

Mr RedDave, offer a rebuttal. Why not?
I'm always willing to listen to other POVs.
But personally, I'm not clamouring for solely Jedi v Empire stuff at all. My point is that Rian did not offer an alternative. He simply tore away what he didnt like and then handed the baton for the third movie over to someone else. 
If Rian didn't want the usual Star Wars tropes, then, by all means, make a compelling alternative. Show the audience a new interesting direction rather than pissing all over the existing narrative.

For me the arms dealers are typical of rians approach to TLJ.
He wanted arms dealers and so crowbarred it in without thought for what had gone before.
Like I mentioned it was already established that the empire designed and manufactured their own weapons/craft. Not just that, but if the arms dealers were selling tie fighters for example, why only empire use them? Why not have the rebels using star destroyers? Or gold squadron flying ties? Seems pretty clear that the design of the star destroyers came from the Republic venator class ships from the prequels which were exclusively used by the Republic AFAIK.
Also I can't imagine old Palps begging the dealers for a line of credit or cadging money from backers to pay off new ships
To me it's lore breaking stuff just for the sake of Rian because he wanted it.look at the Jedi sith stuff. He didn't like it and thought there could room for grey.so what does he do? He kills them all off. Rather than offer an interesting alternative. At the end Rey is still good and kylo is still evil.

Now all that might sound like fanboy bleating, but it really isn't. Its stuff that makes no sense to me and seems to be there just to serve Rian Johnston.

EvilRedEye wrote:

The rebel and resistance fighters have presumably always been generic fighters that just happened to be used by those particular groups with them not appearing on camera in other contexts to avoid confusing the audience rather than for in-universe reasons. Wookiepedia says the First Order TIEs were made by a Sith-leaning off-shoot of the manufacturer from the OT so it is indeed a bit weird that some kind of intermediary is involved. Perhaps they just provided the lasers for the fighters or something.

Apparently there have always been plot holes of this nature with the old Expanded Universe struggling to avoid it appearing like the rebellion had a bunch of X-wings built right under the Emperor's nose.

See, this is why i think this is the wrong tree for Rian to bark up in the middle movie of the last Skywalker trilogy.
The central plot of the movie was very weak and incredibly clumsy and so there is nothing to distract from these minor details, if anything they are amplified.


Im grumpy with work and taking it out on TLJ and Rian Johnston's stupid head.

It's such a powerful and important theme though, that section of the film really made me ask myself..."who is the real bad guy here?".



Then I immediately answered myself "the empire/first order, they're the bad guys. it's well established. it's very clear in this type of film. this whole section of the film feels tacked on to try to be clever or insightful or summat, but just feels insulting and stupid, and reminds me of the prequels."

superflyninja wrote:

Mr RedDave, offer a rebuttal. Why not? I'm always willing to listen to other POVs. But personally, I'm not clamouring for solely Jedi v Empire stuff at all. My point is that Rian did not offer an alternative. He simply tore away what he didnt like and then handed the baton for the third movie over to someone else.  If Rian didn't want the usual Star Wars tropes, then, by all means, make a compelling alternative. Show the audience a new interesting direction rather than pissing all over the existing narrative. For me the arms dealers are typical of rians approach to TLJ. He wanted arms dealers and so crowbarred it in without thought for what had gone before. Like I mentioned it was already established that the empire designed and manufactured their own weapons/craft. Not just that, but if the arms dealers were selling tie fighters for example, why only empire use them? Why not have the rebels using star destroyers? Or gold squadron flying ties? Seems pretty clear that the design of the star destroyers came from the Republic venator class ships from the prequels which were exclusively used by the Republic AFAIK. Also I can't imagine old Palps begging the dealers for a line of credit or cadging money from backers to pay off new ships To me it's lore breaking stuff just for the sake of Rian because he wanted it.look at the Jedi sith stuff. He didn't like it and thought there could room for grey.so what does he do? He kills them all off. Rather than offer an interesting alternative. At the end Rey is still good and kylo is still evil. Now all that might sound like fanboy bleating, but it really isn't. Its stuff that makes no sense to me and seems to be there just to serve Rian Johnston.

I think part of the problem is you can be too tied to the lore and what happened before. I just don't think that the Star Wars universe is that strongly put together in terms of being inflexible to a new approach or a new take despite what went before. The thing is, Star Wars isn't a universe with one super strong author pulling it all together, like Martin with the Game of Thrones books. Its a mish mash of different writers over the years. Lucas steered it, but much of the world building has been done ad-hoc. Nothing wrong with that, but it means that at times certain approaches will come along that dont uphold all the lore in favour of trying to tell a new story or take a new approach. 

But aside from that, I think the arguments of what Rian left are frankly bullshit. Lets accept that Last Jedi is both a bad film and a bad star wars film. The idea that you could not make a good film out of the threads left (or that there are none) just doesnt hold water. You might not like where he left the plot but it's hardly dead end. I mean people were able to write books, games and movies following on from Return of the Jedi even though that has the biggest dead end of the lot. 

The biggest problem with the whole 7-9 trilogy i that it clearly isn't a trilogy. The fault for this isn't JJ who did a good rebirth movie in the force awakens, and shat the bed with the rise, and it isn't Rian who tried too hard to make changes that people didnt want. It's the idiots who from the start knew they were making a trilogy, that it needed to both tell an overarching narrative and that it needed to continue the story that the fans had fallen in love with. 

I like Last Jedi but if Rian Johnson pitched that he wanted to shake things up he should have been given a stand alone to lay the ground work and to see if it worked or the very lest, given the next trilogy. Someone should have been in charge of making sure that the key ground work to the 3 movies was laid out. Main character is Rey, She starts here, she needs to get to here by the end. 

The worst bit is that we should have gotten 3 great movies. The basics are there - they had fan interest, they had lots of ground work from previous movies and books to pull from if they needed to. The special effects are excellent and they obviously would have full financial backing . They also put together a really good cast who were great in FA, but then spoiled in the other 2 movies ( I might defend last Jedi as a movie but It made a mistaking splitting the cast up, especially Finn and Poe)

@RedDave2 I agree with pretty much all of that.

But look yes, someone could have taken up the reigns after TLJ and gone onto great things. But in the context of TLJ being the middle movie of the final trilogy it was a dick move on Johnson's part IMO. I honestly don't think he left enough scope for someone to come in and tie TFA and TLJ up in a nice bow and finish off with the perfect end. Rise was always going to be a giant (enjoyable though it turned out) mess. 

The true badguys here are the Disney overlords. Star Wars needed a Kevin Feige style character to steer the ship and have an overarching story in place. That they didn't is incredible.

I like how questions 18 and 30 are basically the same question.

18 and 30 are the most important characters in the trilogy

ANSWERS