Motorbikes - The Bear and Badger

Elmlea

Thanks for the tips, btw. Most important bits of safety kit after helmet must be boots and gloves, right?

Mod74

Elmlea wrote:

I remember being told to spend as much on your helmet as you think your head is worth, and it should be 50% of the cost of all your kit?

That's bollocks sorry. I just saw a Â£90 helmet with a 5 star SHARP rating and a Â£450 one with 2 stars.

Anything from this list is objectively the best you can get for safety regardless of price

http://sharp.direct.gov.uk/testhelmetlist?sharp-make=All&sharp-model=&sharp-type=All&sharp-rating=5&discontinued=1

Everything else is niceties like venting, lining, visor system (anti fog or tint). Almost everyone adds a Â£100 or more for fancy graphics, even more for race/rider replica stuff.

Mod74

Elmlea wrote:

Thanks for the tips, btw. Most important bits of safety kit after helmet must be boots and gloves, right?

Gloves absolutely. You could argue they're more important than a helmet as if (when) you fall off you're guaranteed to put your hands down where your head might not hit the ground. Get some with a heavy pad/armour on the palm. Like mine

Waterproofing might not apply much now but they should last years so again if you're in the UK you'll appreciate it.

Then it's stuff like knee, elbow and shoulder padding/armour. Then boots but only the ankle protection. Basically any knobbly bit of your body that sticks out. Back protection is a distant consideration imo.

Note: all opinions my own, you'll soon find there's a lot of mythology that goes with biking, esp gear.

Matt_82

Not sure I would put gloves above knee pads tbh. Â Or even vice versa. Â You're asking for trouble riding without either of them.

I am probably biased due to my knee pads coming to my rescue when I came off my bike 2 years back. Â I lowsided off on gravel and my left knee was the first part to come in contact with the ground. Â Had I not had a kneepad in my trousers I would have fucked my knee completely. Â There's no doubt in my mind I'd be unable to walk properly even today. As it was, it hurt for a month and returned to normal.

If you're prioritising them for budget purposes then I'd maybe agree. Â The hard plastic that saved my knee wasn't expensive.

Mod74

I only put gloves before knee pads in the "where to spend cash" list because as I'm sure you know there's nothing worse than uncomfortable/cold/soggy/sweaty/unfeedbacky* gloves.

*it's a word.

On the safety list they're even. ish. But as you say, unfortunately the only guaranteed way to really know where you want to spend cash is to fall off and note which bits hurt the most.

Mod74

As an aside to that, don't be too tempted to buy the most expensive stuff in the shop. It's not till you've used all of it you get a feel for what you like and where it's worth pushing the budget a smidge. You might spend a small fortune on a leather romper suit then realise some textile stuff would have been better. Plus you look like a total dick in it.

Escape

There are two helmet design philosophies (based on price, really): ones that shatter on impact to maximally dissipate initial trauma, and those that favour (in theory, because the inner layer's massively important) guarding more effectively against blunt trauma at the cost of pointed-impact protection. Shark are a major proponent of the former, F1-style approach.

It seems like an idea to choose based on whether you're a boonies rider - typically a single blunt impact and off down the road/through a hedge, or a town rider with lots of sharp walls, parked cars and traffic. But crashes are entirely random, so it's a personal call.

Composite helmets - fibreglass/Kevlar/carbon - are lighter than polycarbonate ones, but the polycarbs are cheaper. You might be familiar with the impact flexibility of polycarb lenses from flying. And you know what to expect from carbon fibre from F1. Theory... The flex in polycarb should transmit less trauma to your head than compo if the impact area is sufficiently large. But the opposite might be true if the impact is sharp (because the polycarb is then bending more acutely, transmitting more localised force.)

But like I say, the inner materials are vital in supporting the argument either way.

Too much ventilation on top - common in the US - increases the chance of penetration. (Y'listening, Maverick?)

Flip-fronts are weaker in side impacts, but obviously still much better than piss-pots. Finally, a particularly heavy lid can heighten stress on your neck if you ditch at an angle. Go for a double D-ring strap and avoid buckle systems. By far the most important thing is fit.

Sharks agree with my narrow, size-large noggin. Mav... Higher-end Shoeis often have removable cheek pads for a choice of fits. As tight as is comfortable, basically. It's hard for old Mekon me to find helmets with enough grip on the cheeks that don't pinch around the top. (It's flowing of its own accord now.)

Sharks are quite common in the US, I believe. Suomy and AGV have their fans. Nolan make a lot of open-facers. Arai and Shoei are big names; if one of theirs fits you well, you can't go far wrong.

Don't worry about the brand of leathers. Off-the-peg's fine if it doesn't cut you in half. If the leather's too smooth it'll burn through easily; rougher stuff's what you want. Feel the thickness - 1.3 mm's good, and examine the stitching. Round up the heavy leather with quality stitching, try everything on, and then check the prices of your favourites. If you're riding carefully on quiet roads and it's hot, you can buy Draggin jeans or similar.

If you want a bike with an upright riding position, buy a neck tube warmer thingy. I bought one for the winter when I rode a 'crosser to college, but carried on wearing it through summer because it stops you feeling the insects that hit your neck.

It's an idea to get gloves with the ring and little finger stitched together. Lots of Kevlar over the knuckles, and padding over the ulna. Reinforcement around the wrist is good, so too is a thick underside, but these limit mobility and feel.

Not much to say about boots. If they fit well, the only consideration is material quality (lateral rigidity) and their anti-rain properties (remember rain?). Vented'll do you.

Buy a Honda Goldwing. Your wife's actually a lesbian, but that's all right - a beard'll come in handy for your Goldie.

adored

Elmlea wrote:

hylian_elf wrote:

Erm. What's this doing in Games section??

I couldn't give a stuff, I just browse through discussions and hit "new thread." Â Also I can't move it.

How very considerate of you. You could of course edit the OP, but fuck it eh?

Moto70

Here's my old bike, which I miss...

Elmlea

adored wrote:

Erm. What's this doing in Games section??

I couldn't give a stuff, I just browse through discussions and hit "new thread." Â Also I can't move it.

How very considerate of you. You could of course edit the OP, but fuck it eh?

Could I? How does that work?

Edit: never mind, I figured it out. Cheers, I didn't know you could retrospectively change the category!

Escape

Ooh, that's nice, Moto. I'm not sold on the colour, but it's very clean.

I might dig out a photo of my 400.

Nina

I'm actually getting fed up with my lessons, still doing the vehicle control part, so officially not allowed to go on the road. Just am not confident enough, I don't dare to push the bike as far down as needed to make proper 8's or fast sla-lomming. Urgh, knee down in corners isn't even my goal, I just want to cruise over roads and enjoy the environment, at a speed where I can still enjoy it.
I was also wrong about how intense two hours of lessons can actually be, am usually knackered afterwards, and concentration levels drop a lot towards the end. But after the time on the parking lot, the small trip back towards the school always makes me enjoy the riding a lot more. 2,5 weeks till my first exam though, getting nervous for that as well. When Bas is back from San Diego next week, he promised to take me out every night for about half an hour, just to make me more confident and practise at my own pace somewhere.
Also managed to block my front wheel twice while doing stops, slightly scary that.

Also started doing my theory, and all those pictures in the book of bikers in the mountains make me realize why I'm doing this.

Love the riding, hate the lessons. Should definitely go for it Elm.

An hour till my next lesson, not feeling it yet. Also managed to spill Orangina over my jeans, the only one I have (wear them under some bike pants) and it's getting all sticky now.

Elmlea

I'm going to book the course today. There's a bit of a delay apparently, but even if it's the early new year it'll still be worth it I reckon.

Nina

Nice one! After my lesson (which went not that great again, need to dare, goddamit, 2,5 weeks to up my confidence in that metal block) I realized it might be one of the greatest things to do (maybe second greatest if you're also used to flying things around etc.). The instructor that was with me had to pick up a repaired bike after my lessons, so I had to ride back with two guys that are already allowed on the road. Was nice, first time I was on a bigger road, 70km/h allowed (whoop, 10 faster than the vespa can do), just cruising around with the other traffic while you're able to see everything around you. Loved it, specially when we turned onto a road which had huge trees next to it, all full with orange leaves (just ignore the ones on the ground). Great to look up for a second, and seeing all that prettiness above you.

For gear, make sure it all actually fits comfortable. The amount of gloves we went trough is crazy, but nothing is as annoying as trying to ride with gloves that don't fit. Currently using Bas his old ones.

Helmet was hard for me to find, I had trouble finding one that actually fits my head comfortably. I currently have this one:

but with a visor all the way down, so I don't get any rain in my face (rain hurts like hell when going 40km/h or above). Sits very comfortable, tight on my cheeks, enough place for my ears (incl my earrings) and not too heavy. Plus the first one I had made sure my head stayed in one piece when it hit the ground in a crash. Might have had a slight bump, can't really remember, but my back was the first to hit the ground full force (thank you back protection), than my head slammed into it. Must have been a pretty good smack.

I have a leather jacket, that I hardly use because I find it a bit too heavy usually (haven't tried it on the bike yet, have to wear school stuff) but it does protect pretty well. Looks good enough to wear as a regular jacket as well. During my lessons I'm wearing textile jackets, which I think are keeping me pretty warm. I know there's a difference between textile and leather, just always forget which is better for warm/cold weather.

For pants I'm currently using cheap ones, they do have some extra protection on my thighs, and doesn't let that much wind/water trough (after 2 hours on a bike, it might let some water slip trough, but I was always more comfortable than the other people in their jeans), but I had to take the knee protection caps out, after more than one hour my knees just hurt really badly, didn't fit that well at all.
Planning on getting some kevlar jeans style thing if I get my license. I need good pants, as I always wear skirts, so even for just a short trip in town I need something that I can easily put on.

Boots, just using my army boots for them, they will let water through, but I don't care that much about that. They have a good grip on the ground, cover your ankles, and I don't feel anything wrong with them when changing gear/braking. Feedback is good, can always feel where on the foot handle I've placed my foot.

Tube neck warmer Escape suggested is very handy to have, I have one like this, from Buff:

covers neck and mouth when on the bike, after I get off I can use it to protect my head if the sun's doing a good job, or just use it to keep my fringe from my face. Was also great on that one night it turned out to be just 2 degreesÂ Celsius when we had to sleep in the tent, covered my whole head with it.

And sunglasses, Bas has them built in into his helmet, I need to get one myself. See quite a lot of people with yellow glasses in theirs, apparently it really helps with seeing what's going on as well, by the way the color filtering works. Not tried it myself, but Bas has, and was positive.

Escape

Here's a photo of mine:

Moto70

Old school!!!

My first bike was a Yamaha FZR 400RR...

Mod74

I used to have quite thing for the faired FZ/Fazer bikes.

Moto70

I never really intended to get one but I passed my test and thought fuck it I'll get something just to use for work, we were doing work for the Suzuki BSB Team and one of the mechanics had it for sale so I thought I may as well get it.

I wondered how anybody rode anything so fast when I first got on it and then within a fortnight I was wringing its neck wondering how anybody rode anything so slow!

Nina

That's the one I'll hopefully be riding sometime soon.

Had my bike control exam today, failed quite miserably. The 3 people from the exam centre came onto the parking lot with their cars, and spend the first 30 minutes or so spinning around. Was quite fun to see, apparently they were checking the asphalt.
After everything was checked and seemed safe enough for all bar one of the exercises, we were divided in groups and everything.
7 exercises, into 4 categories, and you can make 2 mistakes, but not in the same category (parking, slow, fast and braking). My first one was the 180 degree turn, which is the exercise we decided I was not good at, and was allowed to fail, failed that one of course. One after that had to be good, otherwise it was game over. Slow slalom, usually it goes pretty well, but I had hardly anyÂ concentration. Kicked over one cone the first try, second try I missed one. That was that. Kicking myself now, really mad at myself I'm so stupid that I don't even dare to ride the damn thing properly. It looks fairly easy, none of the exercises is dangerous, but I feel my muscles tighten as soon as I try, and I just can't relax.Â

Just need to keep that image of the beautiful mountains in France in my mind, that's why I need to learn the sharp turns, at that's the way I want to go on holiday.

Moto70

tbh, and I really don't mean this in a horrible way, I think that if a person isn't 'flowing' when they're on a bike it is for the best that they aren't on one. The roads can be a dangerous place at the best of times and that increases massively when you are two wheels, whether this is through your own competence or the incompetence of other road users is immaterial. If you can't react to the conditions thrown at you and are struggling to negotiate static cones in a car park then I certainly wouldn't want you on the road on a bike if you were my partner.

Fingers crossed that something clicks soon and you get to feel relaxed and comfortable and out on that open road.

Matt_82

What bike are you learning on?

Nina

@Moto, I'm completely comfortable on the Vespa, and don't have that much trouble with that. The few roads towards the car park on the bike don't go that bad either, I feel more confident than when all the cones are around you and suddenly you're expected to do things that might happen on the road, without being in the actual situation. Which is of course the way to learn, but specially when braking (which I think is my best category) I need to try and visualize a situation where I need to brake to make it actually work. We'll see, not gonna give it up just yet. I know that as soon as it clicks, it should be going pretty well. I'm not afraid on the bike, more a mental block when learning.

@Matt, think they have Kawasaki's ER 5's. Pretty comfortable bikes I think, although the one I had today was one I hadn't been on before, and had some hiccups in the rpm during the slow exercises.

Mod74

Bad luck Nina. I'm sure you'll be fine next time.

I used to hate the slow manoeuvre stuff. They ask you to do it on the test but in reality you don't have to that often, and unless you have some natural ability you only learn to do it well by riding the same bike regularly. There's some connection between slow speed machine control and safety, but not a lot.

Matt_82

I'd been riding for 2 years, in all weathers and on some really dodgy back roads when I started lessons for the Mod 1 and I wasn't too clever doing figures of eight or u-turns either. Â

Not sure why but when doing my mock tests I was nervous, frustrated and making errors. Â Then sailed through the Mod 1 no problems.Â

There are plenty of experienced riders that aren't good with slow control. Â Nina I don't have too much advice other than practice and try to keep calm. Â Also, if you go into a test expecting to fail (your 180 turn) then you probably will.

adored

Right, I have decided to get myself a scooter, looking at getting a 'pre-owned' Vespa PX125.

Will be learning from scratch, including getting my first provisional license and doing CBT etc.

Any suggestions / tips etc welcome.

Moto70

pre-owned is for games, used is for vehicles.

How much money have you got? Also Mod is probably your best bet on the Vespa front...

Mod74

Go down to Mo-Tech at Byker if you want to see a range. He's a smidge on the pricey side compared to buying private.

Modern (i.e. 10 or less years old) PXs are pretty bullet proof.

Two main/major things to watch for are water collecting in the footwell/floor runner and seeping through the seam. If it's done this you'll see bubbling in the paintwork and it's a very difficult fix so avoid.

The second is wear on the main drive, put the machine on its stand and push the weight onto the front wheel. Then grab the rear wheel and wobble it left to right. You should feel no or very little lateral movement. You need two people to check this really.

Neither are especially common faults, but are the most pricey things to have fixed.

Beyond that it's general condition. Electrics can be problematic but rarely on newer machines.

You want something newer than 10ish years (a disc model). Any older and you won't have an electric start or 2 stroke autolube. Neither are the end of the world but for a commuter you want as little hassle as possible.

If you give me a shout I'm more than happy to come and look at some models with you.

Mod74

Very little scooter trade goes through BikeTrader, this is the main market

http://www.scootertrader.com/

Although I've just looked and there's nothing much on atm.

Paul (Mo-Tech) has two PXs on the site. But I wouldn't rely on that being accurate.

adored

Cheers Mod, going to get myself down to Mo-Tech on Saturday hopefully and see what they've got.

Will most definitely take you up on that offer at some point as well.

Cheers Moto as well (I'd just like to point out in my defence that Mo-Tech refer to there used scooters as pre-owned on their website so hah!

Ideally don't want to spend more than a grand on the bike itself as I'll have to fork out for CBT, helmet etc. Bloody provisional license has already cost me Â£79 - robbing bastards.

Mod74

Â£79 to add a bike provisional? Fark me.

TBH you could ride round for the rest of your life on a PX125 without L plates and never be stopped. I've never seen a PX scooter with L plates and knew plenty or riders without full licences.

The main reason to do a full licence is to get moderately cheaper insurance or go up to a bigger engined bike. Well, that and extra training makes you safer I suppose.

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