mk64 wrote:

Less opportunity for social mobility. What does that mean to you? People keeping saying how hard it is and disability is one reason. What others?

One example. Private schools educate 7% of the population but over half of all doctors come from private schools. A third of all MPs. 70% of all judges. 

And another - Private schools and Oxbridge admissions.

Oh gosh I should never type on my iPhone, although "retireealrh!" sounds like what a redneck wud say.

n0face wrote:

Correct, and the idea of paying for your child's education which draws the best teachers and other resources away from comprehensive schools, further disadvantage poorer children and widening the gap. But they could just work harder.

Is a salient person. Oddly, Maria's world view of 'everyone has a chance if they make their own luck' is utterly dependent on the early steps in the ladder being made up of people who are willing to sacrifice the higher tiers of wages to stay on and retain their place. If they all just fucked off and went upstream, as they are supposedly able to, we'd have no nurses that weren't private, or no teachers in state funded schools. To not play the system is the only way to give others a leg up, to step all over you essentially. They don;t get to retire early, they don't get to pay for their kids to go to private school i'm just, I can't even join the dots here as to how convoluted messy the system is.

mk64 wrote:

I'm moving to finance because I'm bored of telecoms and because in order to earn what I want to retire early and pay for my kids education I need to go for jobs which will allow me to do that.

Just pulling that out 'cos I think it's interesting, there seems to be a tacit acknowledgement in there that you feel that getting an education does, in fact, require substantial financial support.  So what of the kids whose parents aren't in a position to offer that?

Bottom line, whether you "make it" comes down to a combination of luck, genetics, geography, education, effort and a whole bunch of other stuff.  A surprisingly small chunk of that is under your control.  A lot of "haves" talk about having to "play the game", but the reality is that a lot of the "have nots" have no idea how the game is played, or even that there's a game to be played.  The "game" is merely a complicated set of rules constructed by people in a position of privilege to ensure they remain in a position of privilege.  (I don't personally think this is a conscious act, I might add.)  If you're an established player, you won't see why no-one else plays it, and you probably won't comprehend how gloriously immoral much of it is.

Still, before I get too comfortable on my high horse, it's probably worth me pointing out my own massive hypocrisy.  The whole "you're all much better of than in some countries"  argument is fundamentally true.  It's something of a red herring - "it's OK to fuck you over 'cos others get even more screwed" - means nothing, but it does illustrate a wider point.  I'm sat in a position of massive privilege, and whilst I think I earn it, I also think wealth should be shared.  But whilst I'm quite content to share within my own country, I'd doubtless resist sharing world wide because I wouldn't cope with the change in lifestyle that would result.  At all.

So I'm a total hypocrite, but at least I know it.  (And would merrily support moves to gradually even it all out...)

(Edit - don't know what happened there, sorry.  I've somewhat truncated my already too long argument to try and tidy up!)

Nobody's saying that these barriers can't be overcome, although for the majority they never are, the issue is that they exist in the first place.

Sorry. I was referring to university. Jury is still out on if we send our kids to private school.

As stated I went to the worst school probably in the country and I've done ok.

I went to one of the best schools in my region that wasn't private, certainly the best college in the area, and I ended up doing pretty shite really at work after college, because it was identified by various bosses that I was ill at ease with the structure and running of every business i've worked for, and thus I'll never get anywhere in business or managerial roles, or finance without 'selling out' or whatever. 

After a while I decided to do what I'm doing now, and so far i'm acing assignments left right and center. Some people just can't play the game, even if they see it.

mk64 wrote:

Sorry. I was referring to university. Jury is still out on if we send our kids to private school. As stated I went to the worst school probably in the country and I've done ok.

All this means in the context of this argument is that one person was able to overcome the barriers. Hang on, I know what you're going to say next, that you know other people who've overcome them. How many? 10? 20? 50? I'll give you 50 as a benefit of the doubt kind of thing. What you're offering here is that of the millions of people who could be considered part of 'our' generation, 50 have been able to be upwardly mobile. That's it, it's all you're offering here.

I recommend watching this little vid, he talks about some stuff that's relevant to this thread and others, probably. Five Minutes With: AC Grayling.

I'm not hard up or anything but still not in the bracket where private school is an option for any future children. But if I could afford it when the time comes, I'd send them there without any hesitation. 

The state school I went to was terrible. Having the audacity to engage with your studies, doing your homework, asking a question in class, all of this was taken as direct provocation to have the shit kicked out of you. 

Although there were plenty of societal issues behind this, the rich can't be blamed for the whole thing.

Tinbot's a good poster.

Only because his parents were.

Rich in quality posts. BURN HIM.

Redistribute his wisdom to those with none.

Though really, having kids seems like a really quick way to narrow your ability to care for and invest energy in the interests of anyone beyond your unit.

Brooks wrote:

Though really, having kids seems like a really quick way to narrow your ability to care for and invest energy in the interests of anyone beyond your unit.

This is very true, it's incredible how quickly your priorities turn inwards.

Also, please don't burn me in the revolution, you can have my posts, all of them.  Even the self indulgent ones where I go on about my kids...