I've flipped on this and decided the timing is genius (having now read a load of people on twitter saying it). May now has to account for Scotland during Brexit negotiations as indyref2 is going to be a referendum on the deal. She really can't do it all her own way now and as such will have to put something together that isn't horrible and could pass a popular vote. "Walking away" isn't an option anymore as it means losing Scotland.

On the chance that Scotland doesn't end up leaving, calling the referendum now will work out better for English Remain chumps like me. If the Scots go though, the U.K. is going to be fucking grim. Scotland won't be any better but at least they'll have the EU and no Tories.

HawBawJaws wrote:

All this 'once in a generation' jive. Right, define a generation. Could it be that there's a new generation in Scotland? One that (like me) didn't really bother with UK politics in general as they didn't really see the point? The same generation that's now (like me) taking an active interest in it because of the indyref? Look at mhairi black. Nothing to do with politics before the indyref. Now a sitting MP at Westminster. The generation changed in 2014.

Well it's most definitely not two years. And the bold Mhairi has come out recently saying that she is bored of Westminster and might not stand in the next election. A career politician, for sure.

Dark Soldier wrote:

Lots of youth got involved into the build up to [the brexit ref], a ton didn't vote and the old 'uns swung it. Can see it being the same, sadly.

That’s pretty much what happened in the 2014 indy ref. The brexit vote just echoed what we’d already seen once up here. Younger folk campaigned, older folk voted. (Also; city folk campaigned, country folk voted.)

LtPidgeon wrote:

HawBawJaws wrote:

All this 'once in a generation' jive. Right, define a generation. Could it be that there's a new generation in Scotland? One that (like me) didn't really bother with UK politics in general as they didn't really see the point? The same generation that's now (like me) taking an active interest in it because of the indyref? Look at mhairi black. Nothing to do with politics before the indyref. Now a sitting MP at Westminster. The generation changed in 2014.

Well it's most definitely not two years. And the bold Mhairi has come out recently saying that she is bored of Westminster and might not stand in the next election. A career politician, for sure.

Says who? Why can't it be two years? Look at all the shit that's gone down since then. They were banging on about EVEL the very next day. And another example of a generational shift: the absolute doing labour took in Scotland at the next general election.

Tbf, I don't think boredom was her main gripe. More that we, the people vote MPs in to represent us and get shit done and instead, they fanny about and do 3/4 of fuck all. It's an antiquated outdated system that doesn't work. And that's before we talk about the house of lords.

I've got to say, HawBaw, your repeated use of the phrase "project fear" does, to my mind at least, undermine your other arguments.

LtPidgeon wrote:

HawBawJaws wrote:

All this 'once in a generation' jive. Right, define a generation. Could it be that there's a new generation in Scotland? One that (like me) didn't really bother with UK politics in general as they didn't really see the point? The same generation that's now (like me) taking an active interest in it because of the indyref? Look at mhairi black. Nothing to do with politics before the indyref. Now a sitting MP at Westminster. The generation changed in 2014.

Well it's most definitely not two years. And the bold Mhairi has come out recently saying that she is bored of Westminster and might not stand in the next election. A career politician, for sure.

I think you'll find that she's more "sick of" Westminster than bored of it. In fact she didnt mention being bored at all.

The other problem is if they do vote to leave the UK then they will be negotiating with the UK and the EU while the UK are also trying negotiate with the EU. It stinks of rush jobs and bad deals.

Yossarian wrote:

I've got to say, HawBaw, your repeated use of the phrase "project fear" does, to my mind at least, undermine your other arguments.

That's fair enough. The term was used excessively in indyref and brexit campaigning. Don't really have another term for the fear tactics used.

True. Too many were ignored for too long. And then an ill conceived , ill designed , and disgracefully competed referendum gave the disconnected a conduit , cheered on a by a ragtag band of rich boys claiming to be sympathetic to the cause.


However  - the power of EU commission is a major flaw. But then we also have the House of Lords.  

Andy wrote:

LtPidgeon wrote:

The wishes of the majority going unheeded is exactly why we are facing calls for a second one. The country voted no.

No, in that case, the wishes of the majority were heeded, otherwise we would be on the road to independence already.

It's maybe worth noting that the SNP know how damaging a second 'No' vote would be to the independence movement. They know how it would affect their credibility, and they know how powerful a trump card it would hand to those in favour of remaining part of the union. In the last independence, the suggestion was that this was a once in a lifetime vote. Circumstances have dictated otherwise. You underestimate how many 'No' voters felt betrayed when the EU referendum result rolled in.

Can't help but agree, to me (a euro sceptic who hypocritically actually bothered to pack a bag and go and see Europe when it was available) this immediate request for another go smells a lot like the euro tactic of having a vote again and again until you get the result you want

Brooks wrote:

The centre shat the duvet entirely, they deserve having to deal with Scotland pushing off too, at very least.

But it's not the centre that will get shafted is it?

And it's not the future shaftees that are choosing any of this, some are insulated, and they will always be insulated

So while the world fills ears with shite you can't blame them, there's almost genuine palpable fear around

The major flaw in your argument is that there doesn't seem to be any chance of a second EU referendum in the foreseeable.

I’m sure there was a fixed number of years mentioned after the indyref. The question was settled for x number of years … there couldn’t be another referendum on the matter for x number of years. Now I can’t find a trace of that anywhere online … did I imagine it? Was it not an official fixed term, and just dodgy reporting based on Salmond’s ‘once in a generation’ comment?

I know the point Sturgeon is making refers to the clause about ‘a material change of circumstances’ so that she can call for a rematch. Which is fine. But I’m really bugged by not being able to dig out the period of agreement.

Anyone else remember, or have a link?

There was nothing stipulating how long another referendum would have to wait. Just people calling it a once in a generation event.

Every political party tries to get over the importance of people getting out and voting with some bullshit. I'm sure the EU Leavers said similar stuff and that wouldn't have put them off calling for another EU ref if they'd lost. It's all bullshit.

No fan of the SNP, or nationalism of any kind really, but they're right on this. They'd ruled out another referendum unless the UK went bonkers. Then that was voted for by Scots in their elections. Then the UK went bonkers. What are they supposed to do?

Really, nothing to see here.