Facewon wrote:As tempy just said it's precisely because he's looked at the specific intentions and motivations in each case, and then further, looked at the bigger picture and seen the patterns and what those patterns say about intentions. Harris's empathy for US politicians and cynicism over the intentions of millions of people is a big problem.
JRPC wrote:Right, I've just read it.
Broadly I'm with Sam on the actual issue, but as an exchange I think Chomsky lets himself down enormously. Aggressive and unwilling to engage in any meaningful dialogue.
As Harris points out, he seems to start off at the end of his tether and deteriorates from there.
legaldinho wrote:I think any intellectually able person, any real independent person, should be ashamed to share this guy's views.
legaldinho wrote:Western harm is unintentional fallout from rational good intentions..... Harm caused by them is never as morally repugnant as the harm caused by religious extremists.
stonechalice wrote:legaldinho wrote:I think any intellectually able person, any real independent person, should be ashamed to share this guy's views.
What's your view of Majiid Nawaz?
JRPC wrote:Much of what you say above is total bullshit, and I think I can clearly demonstrate that to you if you're actually interested in being corrected.
Some of it's opinion. I mean, I don't object to anything in the israel video you posted but if you do I can't really call you out for being wrong as such.
And then there's the "funded by Zionists" bit which is just conspiracy nonsense and cheapens everything else you have to say.
legaldinho wrote:Bullshit. You can't have an opinion that you know that Israel's general intent isn't to commit atrocities against Palestinians. You just assume, like he does, that the guys who say they're good guys must be good guys because they say they're good guys.Much of what you say above is total bullshit, and I think I can clearly demonstrate that to you if you're actually interested in being corrected. Some of it's opinion. I mean, I don't object to anything in the israel video you posted but if you do I can't really call you out for being wrong as such. And then there's the "funded by Zionists" bit which is just conspiracy nonsense and cheapens everything else you have to say.
legaldinho wrote:A single look at the kill count on both sides of the Israeli Palestinian conflict in the last 15 years will show you how odious that view is, never mind how it produces irrational results.
"I don't think Israel should exist as a Jewish state. I think it is obscene, irrational and unjustifiable to have a state organised around a religion"
GooberTheHat wrote:I think even if you give the benifit of doubt regarding intent, there is still the knowledge that there will be a number of civilians killed (within a range) if a certain action is taken, so even without intent there is acceptance of the known consequences. Harris does little to address that.
]I will now present an argument for the use of torture in rare circumstances. While many people have objected, on emotional grounds, to my defense of torture, no one has pointed out a flaw in my argument. I hope my case for torture is wrong, as I would be much happier standing side by side with all the good people who oppose torture categorically. I invite any reader who discovers a problem with my argument to point it out to me. I would be sincerely grateful to have my mind changed on this subject.
stonechalice wrote:Hi Rev!!!
Facewon wrote:Hi rev.
JRPC wrote:You’re ignoring everything I’ve said there Gonz, but OK. I think Harris makes a decent stab in that video trying to reason out the motivations of Israel, but even if I grant you the Israeli intentions are a complete mystery, that absolutely cannot be said for Palestinians. We know precisely what their intentions are because they repeatedly tell us both through their actions but also by explicitly actually telling us. Like Harris says, imagine for a minute a reversal of power where the Palestinians had the kind of resources/firepower available to the Israelis and vice versa. You tell me Gonz - how well do see the Jews doing in Gaza 24 hours later?Bullshit. You can't have an opinion that you know that Israel's general intent isn't to commit atrocities against Palestinians. You just assume, like he does, that the guys who say they're good guys must be good guys because they say they're good guys.Much of what you say above is total bullshit, and I think I can clearly demonstrate that to you if you're actually interested in being corrected. Some of it's opinion. I mean, I don't object to anything in the israel video you posted but if you do I can't really call you out for being wrong as such. And then there's the "funded by Zionists" bit which is just conspiracy nonsense and cheapens everything else you have to say.
I don't think you understood what I was saying there, or you wouldn't have worked so hard to prove my point. What Harris does, apart from assuming the benevolence of Israel's intentions which, as you reluctantly acknowledge, is not opinion or fact but a position, is misdirect the argument.All strawman and misdirection (don't criticise Israel because look at charter of Hamas and Muslims hate Jews and deny Holocaust etc)
JRPC wrote:You can’t rely on body count to tell you anything meaningful about motive or morality. So for another example, for every 1 US fighter ISIS has killed, American forces have killed 15000 of theirs. What does that tell us about who is right and who is wrong here? How close do these numbers get you to the relative moral positions of the two parties? Oh and just back to the whole thing about Harris being on the Zionist payroll for a sec - here's a quote from the exact same video that you posted above:A single look at the kill count on both sides of the Israeli Palestinian conflict in the last 15 years will show you how odious that view is, never mind how it produces irrational results.They should probably ask for their money back."I don't think Israel should exist as a Jewish state. I think it is obscene, irrational and unjustifiable to have a state organised around a religion"
is exactly what one should say if one were on said state's payroll. He wouldn't be paid to justify Zionism, he would be paid to misdirect millions of otherwise neutral persons into supporting the actions of said state.I don't think Israel should exist as a Jewish state. I think it is obscene, irrational and unjustifiable to have a state organised around a religion
WorKid wrote:Any good British history pods people?
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