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  • Dan Carlin is a fucking hack, too.
  • GooberTheHat
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    His history stuff is good though.
  • His history stuff is good though.

    Yeah, his history stuff is solid. But the Common Sense podcast...fuck me.
  • Bollockoff
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    iS THAT BECAUSE HE'S TOO INSULAR cINTY?
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    AHHHH

    God.
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    Speaking generally can an American national be expected to have a well rounded dextrous grasp of modern day int politics? Genuine question. I wonder often if it's a woods through the trees thing not their fault but from the environment from birth.
  • Bollockoff
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    On an aside, celtic holo was fantastic. Ceasar imperator mentula.
  • Bollockoff wrote:
    Speaking generally can an American national be expected to have a well rounded dextrous grasp of modern day int politics? Genuine question. I wonder often if it's a woods through the trees thing not their fault but from the environment from birth.

    Yes? There's plenty of smart folks.

    I'm still great and you still love it.
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    I've got rid of Idle thumbs coz theyre out of ideas and I'm onto Waypoint as the smartest shit out there. Plus they got Danielle Riendeau from the thumbs
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    Facewon wrote:
    Bollockoff wrote:
    Speaking generally can an American national be expected to have a well rounded dextrous grasp of modern day int politics? Genuine question. I wonder often if it's a woods through the trees thing not their fault but from the environment from birth.

    Yes? There's plenty of smart folks.

    SOUNDOFF

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    regmcfly wrote:
    I've got rid of Idle thumbs coz theyre out of ideas and I'm onto Waypoint as the smartest shit out there. Plus they got Danielle Riendeau from the thumbs

    I've given up on Idle Weekend because Danielle and other non-memorable man meandee about too much I don't care about.

    Fortune to them though.

  • Dan Carlin is a fucking hack, too.

    Nonsense, Carlin s transparent and has humility. The only sense I can find in your post is if you refer to his shyness when it comes to putting off half his following, who seem to be red pill "libertarian" types. I can see that but it's normal, man gotta make a living. Harris is totally fucking cynical, the two don't compare.
  • regmcfly
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    Fucking hell has anyone listened to last week's Beastcast?

    In the corrections someone says
    Spoiler:

    Was it one of you
  • regmcfly
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    Bollockoff wrote:
    regmcfly wrote:
    I've got rid of Idle thumbs coz theyre out of ideas and I'm onto Waypoint as the smartest shit out there. Plus they got Danielle Riendeau from the thumbs

    I've given up on Idle Weekend because Danielle and other non-memorable man meandee about too much I don't care about.

    Fortune to them though.

    Given up on the remo /vanaman thing too because they've moved into old man in jokes
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    Shut up about Witcher 3.
  • Ooh this is interesting!

    Child and Gonz can you be more specific about your issues with Harris or offer some examples?

    There's a couple of specific issues where I disagree with him (guns and drugs spring to mind) but generally he seems like the model rational thinker to me.
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  • Chomsky exchange for a start. Rational my arse.
  • Is that the whole 9/11 vs US intervention thing?

    I'm not particularly aware of Chomsky. Largely dismissed him after a few things I heard - probably from Harris actually.
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  • GooberTheHat
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    legaldinho wrote:
    Chomsky exchange for a start. Rational my arse.


    http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-limits-of-discourse
  • I'll have a read of that.

    From what i remember of it, Chomsky was part of the gang that blamed 9/11 on US interventions?

    Which is bonkers, obvs.
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  • Right, I've just read it.

    Broadly I'm with Sam on the actual issue, but as an exchange I think Chomsky lets himself down enormously. Aggressive and unwilling to engage in any meaningful dialogue.

    As Harris points out, he seems to start off at the end of his tether and deteriorates from there.
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  • legaldinho wrote:
    Sam Harris is a self publicising shill and an intellectual fraud. He seems to be making a good living from fooling idiots on the internet, but has zero credibility in the serious academic world. Word to the wise, stone, be very skeptical.

    He strikes many a chord with me on various subjects, but I'm a real cynical fuck. Intellectual fraud though? How do you arrive at this conclusion? There's not many that can articulate a point a well as he can IMO.

  • Chomsky's always inspiring reading. His stuff on 'Nam is excellent. I might have to dig into this Harris/Chomsky altercation.
  • Harris is a self-serving bigot. A cursory investigation - beyond his own wittering and inane rambling - clearly demonstrates this. I mean, wtf:-
    "The outrage that Muslims feel over US and British foreign policy is primarily the product of theological concerns. Devout Muslims consider it a sacrilege for infidels to depose a Muslim tyrant and occupy Muslim lands — no matter how well intentioned the infidels or malevolent the tyrant. Because of what they believe about God and the afterlife and the divine provenance of the Koran, devout Muslims tend to reflexively side with other Muslims, no matter how sociopathic their behavior."
  • Just watched an interview post Affleck and a few other clips. I can see where people get the idea that he's a bigot, especially if you look at it from another perspective. I dunno. I still agree with a lot of the stuff he posits.
  • If you read the chomsky exchange and think that noam's the issue.... Wow.

    Harris has a real problem with how he discusses us/western decision making vs anywhere else.

    See above re Muslims vs how he may describe how a Western country might think things through.

    His exchange with chompers is filled with sympathetic takes on western reasons for doing x and y.

    He has also been unfairly quoted and taken out of context over the years too though. In fairness.

    I'm still great and you still love it.
  • Stopharage wrote:
    Harris is a self-serving bigot. A cursory investigation - beyond his own wittering and inane rambling - clearly demonstrates this. I mean, wtf:-
    "The outrage that Muslims feel over US and British foreign policy is primarily the product of theological concerns. Devout Muslims consider it a sacrilege for infidels to depose a Muslim tyrant and occupy Muslim lands — no matter how well intentioned the infidels or malevolent the tyrant. Because of what they believe about God and the afterlife and the divine provenance of the Koran, devout Muslims tend to reflexively side with other Muslims, no matter how sociopathic their behavior."

    I'm not sure I'd be confident to put down the outrage as "primarily" due to theology when talking about Muslims generally, but it clearly is for those he goes on to talk about. 

    The next couple of paragraphs: 

    Muslims in Iraq and elsewhere have been traumatized by war and by decades of repression. But this does not explain the type of violence they wage against us on a daily basis. War and repression do not account for suicidal violence directed against the Red Cross, the U.N., foreign workers, and Iraqi innocents. War and repression do not account for the influx of foreign fighters willing to sacrifice their lives merely to sow chaos. Abu Musab al-Zarqawi is not George Washington with a hood. Sawing the heads off of civilian contractors, humanitarian workers, and journalists is not “resistance” to oppression. It is the work of men who left their hearts in the 7th century. Civilization really does have its enemies, and we have met — and, perhaps, made – many of them in Iraq.

    It is time we admitted that we are not at war with “terrorism”; we are at war with precisely the vision of life that is prescribed to all Muslims in the Koran. This is not to say that we are at war with all Muslims, but we are absolutely at war with millions more than have any direct affiliation with Al Qaeda. Every person living in a western democracy should read the Koran and discover the relentlessness with which non-Muslims are vilified in its pages. The idea that Islam is a “peaceful religion hijacked by extremists” is a dangerous fantasy—and it is now a particularly dangerous fantasy for moderate Muslims to indulge.
     
    Is there anything there to disagree with? If so please do point it out. 

    To call Harris a bigot is to be either unfamiliar with his work or to misunderstand it.

    Facewon wrote:
    If you read the chomsky exchange and think that noam's the issue.... Wow. Harris has a real problem with how he discusses us/western decision making vs anywhere else. See above re Muslims vs how he may describe how a Western country might think things through. His exchange with chompers is filled with sympathetic takes on western reasons for doing x and y. He has also been unfairly quoted and taken out of context over the years too though. In fairness.

    What?

    I'll grant you neither come out of it particularly well, but it's Chomsky who seems intent on derailing the conversation with open hostility, not Harris.

    And as for his relative sympathy for the US, there are numerous examples of Harris being extremely critical of US foreign policy - and rightly so. But Chomsky seems eager to tar all foreign policy with the same malevolent brush, without much examination in the specific intentions and motivations of each case.


    This isn't honest or helpful. 

    Surely you'd agree that intentions really do matter, right?
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  • I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I've read stacks of his work and found him lacking somewhat in a wider appreciation of opposing views. It's his failure to ever get towards an appreciation that the vast majority of Muslims aren't as he believes they are.
    Muslims in Iraq and elsewhere have been traumatized by war and by decades of repression. But this does not explain the type of violence they wage against us on a daily basis

    That reeks heavily of someone who has very limited empathy skills. If you're going to pontificate in the way he is, you certainly don't need to agree and accept that behaviour but you do need to have an appreciation of why they do it. It really isn't that difficult to explain why they use the violence they do.
  • Chomsky's reading of US foreign policy is probably coloured by decades of them being awful, and him picking over in fine detail many things, including their total moral bankruptcy in how they approached and framed Vietnam.
  • As tempy just said it's precisely because he's looked at the specific intentions and motivations in each case, and then further, looked at the bigger picture and seen the patterns and what those patterns say about intentions.

    Harris's empathy for US politicians and cynicism over the intentions of millions of people is a big problem.
    I'm still great and you still love it.

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