Racist - The Bear and Badger

Yossarian

RedDave2 wrote:

Yossarian wrote:

RedDave2 wrote:

Very good point kow.

Diluted Dante wrote:

RedDave2 wrote:

Obviously skin colour registers - but so does everything.

Which is precisely why "I don't see colour" is an incredibly unhelpful statement, because as has been seen above with Davy, you actually do.

How about I see colour but it doesn't make a major impact? I'm being a bit glib maybe but if I was doing an interview for a job, ablack person or a white person in a well presented outfit will get a very different reaction from me than someone who turns up in scruffs, regardless of skin tone.

Unless you’re a raging racist, that will be the case, but what if there are two people in suits, one black, one white?

They both interview very well, they’re both qualified for the position, but you’ve only got one job to give. That’s the point where racism is potentially going to come into play, even if subconsciously. Usually, the job will be given on the basis of who might be the better “fit” in an organisation, of course, we know we fit into our organisations, so it seems only natural that the person who most resembles us will also fit in.

I don't know. I see where you are coming from but I think its rare you will ever find 2 people so equally matched that it came down to skin tone. If skin tone will be a thing than I'd agree that is racist. I could understand the culture thing a lot more but that's not quite the same. I wouldn't think of white French person as being closer to fitting in with me than a black Irish person for example.

But the point is that it won’t be about skin tone, not consciously at least, it’s about those subconscious cues which make us feel closer to some people than others when we first meet them. A position of “I don’t see colour” means never examining where those subconscious cues come from and what they point towards, so can end up meaning that (a generic) you could be perpetuating racism without ever realising it.

Kow wrote:

I'd probably give the job to the black guy seeing as I might be labelled a racist if I didn't. What kind of racism is that?

It’s the exact same kind under U.K. law (although there are certain exceptions that can be made within that).

RedDave2

Kow wrote:

Racism is not the same racism everywhere. I don't think a black person in Ireland would be discriminated against like they might be in parts of the US or England.

A football match at the weekend where one team had to walk out begs to differ sadly. But yes, probably a bit more under the surface here. Seems higher in poorer areas though. I was once told by someone that their mate just doesn't like black people but couldn't explain why. And that person accepted that.

Edit: just a thought - for those of you saying that we do see skin tone and our reactions are subconscious - do you believe your own subconscious to have a racist bias? Do you make a judgement on a person based on their skin tone alone, positively or negatively?

If you don't, why do you assume that the default is for others that they do?

Kow

When you get to the point of saying that people who are trying to treat everyone equally and not be racist are being subconsciously racist, then to my mind it starts to get a bit silly.

Yossarian

RedDave2 wrote:

Kow wrote:

Racism is not the same racism everywhere. I don't think a black person in Ireland would be discriminated against like they might be in parts of the US or England.

A football match at the weekend where one team had to walk out begs to differ sadly. But yes, probably a bit more under the surface here. Seems higher in poorer areas though. I was once told by someone that their mate just doesn't like black people but couldn't explain why. And that person accepted that.

Edit: just a thought - for those of you saying that we do see skin tone and our reactions are subconscious - do you believe your own subconscious to have a racist bias? Do you make a judgement on a person based on their skin tone alone, positively or negatively?

If you don't, why do you assume that the default is for others that they do?

I’ve taken subconscious bias tests and yes, I, like everyone else, am riddled with unconscious biases. This is something I’m now aware of and can take steps to mitigate.

Yossarian

Kow wrote:

Racism is not the same racism everywhere. I don't think a black person in Ireland would be discriminated against like they might be in parts of the US or England.

Thought I’d look into this and it doesn’t look great for Ireland.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30956257.html

LivDiv

Kow wrote:

I'd probably give the job to the black guy seeing as I might be labelled a racist if I didn't. What kind of racism is that?

Positive discrimination.

Kow

Yossarian wrote:

Kow wrote:

Racism is not the same racism everywhere. I don't think a black person in Ireland would be discriminated against like they might be in parts of the US or England.

Thought I’d look into this and it doesn’t look great for Ireland. https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30956257.html

Yeah, I'm referring to Ireland from before the boom really, I don't know much about the place in the last 20 years. It's probably changed for the worse.

Yossarian

I dunno. About 20 years ago now I hired a mixed race Irish woman who had left the country due to all of the racism she was on the receiving end of, it sounded pretty horrendous for her.

I suspect that this might have been happening but flying under the radar for those who weren’t on the receiving end of it.

dynamiteReady

Kow wrote:

When you get to the point of saying that people who are trying to treat everyone equally and not be racist are being subconsciously racist, then to my mind it starts to get a bit silly.

Absolutely.
It's not that complicated.

But perhaps that's just me exhibiting a lack of sophistication.

Kow

Yossarian wrote:

I dunno. About 20 years ago now I hired a mixed race Irish woman who had left the country due to all of the racism she was on the receiving end of, it sounded pretty horrendous for her. I suspect that this might have been happening but flying under the radar for those who weren’t on the receiving end of it.

Oh I'm sure it happened. But where I lived there wasn't anyone for it to happen to.

RedDave2

Yossarian wrote:

I dunno. About 20 years ago now I hired a mixed race Irish woman who had left the country due to all of the racism she was on the receiving end of, it sounded pretty horrendous for her.

I suspect that this might have been happening but flying under the radar for those who weren’t on the receiving end of it.

A lot of the problems in Ireland are because they are under the radar. We are blinkered at the best to times.

I think kow and Davy do raise a point about not seeing it because it wasn't there to be seen. I think I'd defo be in that age group. Obviously doesn't mean it wasn't happening.

LivDiv

I think the difference is being culturally aware.

Davy saw those three lads as just that. 3 young men, footballers, England players.
That is great, that is what they are and in having that outlook the implication is that Davy wouldn't treat them any differently to any other player of any other race or background. Thumbs up.

Being culturally aware is really the next step beyond that. To recognise that although you don't see it and you wouldn't treat them differently parts of our society do. My thoughts when they stepped up were unfortunately on the abuse they are almost certain to receive on social media afterwards, and realistically that could be if they score or not. A black person putting themselves in a position of attention for good or bad, positive or negative will result in racism from people. Simply existing in the public eye puts a target on their back.

dynamiteReady

The problem, Liv, is that racially motivated death threats and abuse targeted at anyone, at any time, should be punished. People should be arrested for it. If we can't do that (free speech? Wtf), then institutions should punish it.

They don't, and that's why this is a reoccurring dispute.

Every Twitter account has an email address associated with it. With even the scarcest of resources, the means to punish, or at least investigate every transgression exists, for online abuse at the very least.

Berate players for fluffing their lines, fine. Bants.
Maradona, Gazza and Graham Taylor got it particularly bad.

But making the lives of others worse because of something so relatively meaningless is not right.

Isn't it?

LivDiv

I totally agree. The lack of punishment for serious abuse (racist or otherwise) is shocking.
If you mailed somebody a letter saying what is tweeted you would be arrested, especially when it comes to death threats.

Thats why its important to acknowledge that gap between treating somebody as equal and recognising that society or parts of society don't, so they are effectively not equal.
Every bit of pressure on Kane and Maguire was the same and more on the other three players simply because they aren't white.

poprock

LivDiv wrote:

Being culturally aware is really the next step.

It’s helpful to remember this is exactly what the term ‘woke’ refers to. Being culturally aware. Having ‘woken up’ to the fact that our culture, society and institutions are inherently racist, even if you and I personally are not.

I think the term has started to morph and evolve, as language often does (the right wing are trying to render it as meaningless and dismissible as ‘politically correct’) - but the original intended meaning is valid, and raises things worth thinking about.

Diluted Dante

The right wing twats use it to mean "anything I disagree with"

dynamiteReady

Call me an extremist, but I think the best thing to do, is punish obvious transgressions in a way that people can't even play with the idea that:

LivDiv wrote:

its important to acknowledge that gap between treating somebody as equal and recognising that society or parts of society don't, so they are effectively not equal.

The way your post reads, is that you think that missing a penalty comes down to a question of race, character and not plain bad luck:

LivDiv wrote:

Every bit of pressure on Kane and Maguire was the same and more on the other three players simply because they aren't white.

Can you see, from the above, why I'd prefer people to step back from this cultural awareness thing? I'm sure your post was coming from a decent place, but look what I did with it.

A can of worms, right there.

The only real answer, is to punish people piecemeal for racism.

If the transgressors are truly a 'minority', then a clampdown won't cost much, I'm sure.

RedDave2

Diluted Dante wrote:

The right wing twats use it to mean "anything I disagree with"

Such a woke response from Dante, as usual.

*in my experience, a lot of old people just think it means flower power, tree-hugging PC liberal. In fact, I think it is often mixed with PC in general as a derogatory term.

Side note : Just did a Implicit Bias test with this site - Project Implicit. Its very american focus and i got a slight automatic preference for African American over European American. Obviously I was focused on passing the test so not sure what that tells me really, but I'm in a group of 7% (largest group is 27% - moderate preference for European Americans over African Americans)

Does anyone have a link to any other ones? I'm genuinely curious on this.

LivDiv

You have miss read my post totally is what you did with it. That can be done with anything.
I didnt even express an opinion on why they missed a penalty (for what its worth its because two of them barely kicked a ball all tournament and the other was an emotional mess).

The road to punishing transgressors is for the larger public to demand it and that won't happen if people aren't aware of the problem so don't treat it as a problem.

Paul the sparky

I use woke when I catch a scent of virtue signaling. Shabby devoting half his mini review to bemoan the injustice of a family being white in a film. Frosty dropping the colour blind thing in response to Davy's post.

Like, just not being racist isn't quite enough now, you need to sound off the many ways in which things could tangentially be construed as problematic. And that gets real old fast

Paul the sparky

Probably makes me an old right wing twat

Yossarian

Yeah, the term virtue-signalling can fuck off into the sun. Such a nasty and small-minded way to try to undermine people.

Paul the sparky

A nasty, small minded, old, right wing twat

Funkstain

Paul the sparky wrote:

Probably makes me an old right wing twat

No, but it does seem a bit of a rude way of dismissing a whole load of often interesting discussion.

I thought what was being talked about was what it really takes to "just not be racist", and that perhaps being truly colour blind is not in fact enough - and in addition, a tangent on whether one can really be truly colour blind anyway.

Dismissing everything as "things that could tangentially be construed as problematic" is elegant summary of your thoughts on the discussion, I guess, but doesn't really add much other than "you're idiots for thinking about this stuff, just don't be racist" gee thanks

dynamiteReady

LivDiv wrote:

You have miss read my post totally is what you did with it. That can be done with anything.

I'm trying to get you to see why overcomplicating and contextualising reasons for racism (cultural fucking awareness) is unhelpful.

LivDiv wrote:

The road to punishing transgressors is for the larger public to demand it and that won't happen if people aren't aware of the problem so don't treat it as a problem.

But everyone is aware of the problem.
They've been aware of the problem for a few hundred years now.

Don't worry. I won't drag it out.

Here...

Please sign this, if you haven't already:
https://www.change.org/p/football-association-and-oliver-dowden-sec-of-state-dcms-pm-boris-johnson-ban-racists-for-life-from-all-football-matches-in-england?recruiter=false&utm_source=share_petition&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&utm_medium=whatsapp&utm_content=washarecopy_29838727_en-GB:0&recruited_by_id=a36b37a0-e325-11eb-95f9-3d55fe25f15a

Funkstain

dynamiteReady wrote:

LivDiv wrote:

You have miss read my post totally is what you did with it. That can be done with anything.

I'm trying to get you to see why overcomplicating and contextualising reasons for racism (cultural fucking awareness) is unhelpful.

What are the simple context-free reasons for racism and its continuation as a blight on humanity? After all simple problems have simple solutions and require no silly navel-gazing professors to figure things out. Ah look a change-org petition

LivDiv

I don't think I have over complicating things really. That seems quite a simple notion to understand.

I don't think Change.org things do anything on this matter.
Why bother having a racist government debate matters of racism?

dynamiteReady

LivDiv wrote:

I don't think Change.org things do anything on this matter. Why bother having a racist government debate matters of racism?

That's sad. All I can do, is ask.

Funkstain wrote:

You have miss read my post totally is what you did with it. That can be done with anything.

I'm trying to get you to see why overcomplicating and contextualising reasons for racism (cultural fucking awareness) is unhelpful.

What are the simple context-free reasons for racism and its continuation as a blight on humanity? After all simple problems have simple solutions and require no silly navel-gazing professors to figure things out. Ah look a change-org petition

Be as flippant as you like, but I'm sure you realise, that many intractable problems aren't necessarily complicated.

Sign/Don't sign the Change.org petition. If your heart really is in the right place, I hope you are doing something, at least.

But this 'cultural awareness' thing, as described here? Is sophistry.

Paul the sparky

Funkstain wrote:

Paul the sparky wrote:

Probably makes me an old right wing twat

No, but it does seem a bit of a rude way of dismissing a whole load of often interesting discussion.

I thought what was being talked about was what it really takes to "just not be racist", and that perhaps being truly colour blind is not in fact enough - and in addition, a tangent on whether one can really be truly colour blind anyway.

Dismissing everything as "things that could tangentially be construed as problematic" is elegant summary of your thoughts on the discussion, I guess, but doesn't really add much other than "you're idiots for thinking about this stuff, just don't be racist" gee thanks

We have discussed it, many times, in this thread and others. I don't think it applied to Davy's post and saw it as a bit of a knowledge bomb being dropped, virtue signaling to reap the right on high fives.

I'm all for challenging shit behavior, but challenging non-shit behavior is pretty shitty in its own right. There wasn't anything wrong with Davy's original post, I'm sure loads of people are capable of watching the match (or a film) without making a mental note of what race did what. It's only once the racist dick heads get involved that it becomes an issue

Yossarian

There wasn’t a “challenge” to Davy’s post, there was some knowledge being shared in a polite and respectful way.

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories