Red Dead Redemption 2 - The Bear and Badger

equinox_code

Showed my girlfriend this and she remarked that it’s ‘just like the Sims but different’

Paul the sparky

Fair

equinox_code

I really do love this as it does so many things better than anything else, and yet I can't help wonder how much better it could have been. For a game that has so much potential to reward exploration (in a landscape/theme this beautifully realised, exploration should really be the game's strongest point), there is surprisingly little incentive to do this. It seems as though most of the noteworthy locations eventually feature in one of the main missions, and even when trying to explore it's mostly a case of watching the minimap for an icon to come into sight. Personally I would have loved it if they'd found a way to build this game without the minimap altogether, or at least without the icons and waypoints. I realise you can just turn the minimap off, but this isn't much of a solution when the game doesn't include any other method of navigation and orienteering.

I can appreciate that building the game around an absence of waypoints and icons would be challenging, but they could have at least taken this approach with hunting. having all the animal locations marked on the map already completely removes all the exploration and discovery. It's just more waypoints again. A much better approach would have been to allow the player to annotate their own map with animal locations as or when they find them.

equinox_code

Maybe coming from Elden Ring spoiled me for exploration rewards. Still, it would have been nice if my adventures around the landscape on this occasionally turned up unique weapons, tools or items of clothing. Give me a reason to go skulking. Give me a reason to ride in a random direction. Returning to base with the same generic loot as last time + predictable pelts falls so far short of the game's real potential

Paul the sparky

There are unique weapons and things dotted around. Very hard to find though, I think I got one or two. There's plenty of other reward for exploring off the beaten track, but they tend to only add to the experience and not your inventory

RamSteelwood

I prefer the RDR2 method if anything. There's a strong narrative thread that you can follow, that will take you everywhere interesting and in an order that suits your growth in ability as a player. Or if you want you can ignore it and go off and do whatever you want....but not bothering with that doesn't affect your ability on the main story line at all really

GooberTheHat

There are a ton of side stories and experiences that you can miss entirely if you don't explore off the path of the main storyline.

nick_md

Random encounters too. I keep meaning to go...

Spoiler:

There's a long list of stuff I'm yet to do actually.

yourfavouriteuncle

nick_md wrote:

Random encounters too. I keep meaning to go...

Spoiler:

...hunting for the KKK as I never bumped into them during my playthrough

There's a long list of stuff I'm yet to do actually.

I got those guys good.

Also stumbled across the

Spoiler:

and

Spoiler:

I’m also still of the opinion that it does freeform exploration really well - piecing together the treasure hunting is great and I like the way that a lone tree or cacti silhouetted on a hill side can catch your eyeline and pull you over for a nosey. There may be no grand Golden Shotgun +4 reward at the end of it but I like it even more for that. Who’d have thought rockstar could be so subtle with their game worlds?

Escape

Rockstar's worldbuilding overtook their design nous a couple of gens back.

I still think Bound in Blood felt the most like playing a Leone (skip to the shootout at 1:15):

No reason Redemption III's protag can't handle like a saddle-sore Max Payne.

Moot_Geeza

This reminds me I need to play Juarez Gunslinger again.

equinox_code

RamSteelwood wrote:

I prefer the RDR2 method if anything. There's a strong narrative thread that you can follow, that will take you everywhere interesting and in an order that suits your growth in ability as a player. Or if you want you can ignore it and go off and do whatever you want....but not bothering with that doesn't affect your ability on the main story line at all really

Sure, but even when you follow the narrative it's just zoning your attention to a waypoint, and when you explore it's mostly aimless wondering until you see a glimmer of an icon on the minimap, which if pursued unlocks more waypoint beelining.

For me it's an actual tragedy that none of the missions I have encountered encourage exploration in the slightest. Literally not even 1, and I'm 50% through the game. Everything is marked out for you. There are no directions to follow; landmarks to look out for; rumours to look into. The core gameplay loop should be exploration (everything else in the game seems geared towards immersing the player in such an adventure, so they did the hardest bit already), not semi-conscious autopilotting a horse with a satnav. It really breaks my heart.

The weird thing is I have actually encountered 2 situations in the game so far that did things a bit differently. This was when I was looking for homesteads to rob. Some NPCs engaged me, we interacted, cool stuff happened, but there wasn't a single icon on the map from start to finish, and so it felt so much more immersive.

My other gripe is all the smoke and mirrors, particularly in regards to combat. Far too many enemies just teleport into situations. Sure, you don't see them actually teleport, but you know it's happening. Then there are chase sequences against an uncatchable opponent. Uncatchable, that is, until an arbitrary point has been passed, at which point it becomes impossible not to catch them. another illustrative example could be the invincible horse I just encountered. It was made this way because it was the escape method of an NPC I was about to confront. How much nicer it would have been if I could scupper his plans in advance by shooting his steed. I would gladly sacrifice some cinematography for a bit of freedom, because at present the toy box ends as soon as any mission begins.

Anyway, if that sounds like I'm not enjoying it then it's far from the truth. It's an exceptional game that does so many things so much better than anything else I've ever played. I'd even call it a masterpiece.

nick_md

Yeah it's a cracker eh. Some folks on the subreddit start a second playthrough with minimap disabled, but I don't think that's realistic on a first playthrough.

Top tip btw simply because I didn't realise this for a while, you can quick-open the map by holding down one of the buttons, pause probably. I hated pausing then going to map, quick open was a welcome find.

GooberTheHat

Have you done the treasure hunts? They are all about looking for landmarks.

GooberTheHat

g.man

I remember trying to do one of those. I accidentally punched my horse and it ran away, then I accidentally fell off a cliff and died.

g.man

I did not find the treasure.

stellavista

Life’s learning was the treasure.

Gremill

I've just received a work email from a Colm O'Driscoll. WTF. I may have to hunt him down and shoot him in the street like a dawg.

Paul the sparky

Hangin's too good for that one

RamSteelwood

Just remember that he does have about 739 relatives and associates hiding in the trees and various other locations ready to step out and shoot at you without a moments hesitation

RedDave2

RamSteelwood wrote:

Just remember that he does have about 739 relatives and associates hiding in the trees and various other locations ready to step out and shoot at you without a moments hesitation

At first I though that was just shoddy game design but the Irish did have a rep for breeding like rabbits when they hit a new country. Maybe its historically accurate?

equinox_code

I think I have identified another significant bother with this; it never poses a challenge. Where most games I throw time at test something, be it dexterity, reaction time, logic, creativity etc, this game manages to avoid it all completely. All the missions are basically Simon Says + cutscenes. Shooting, stealth sections, moving from place to place; all these components are so tightly controlled and yet require no skill whatsoever, and so the sum of their parts feels quite flat, even if all the window dressing remains superbly impressive as ever.

Paul the sparky

Yeah, that's why I'd like fewer, harder hitting enemies. I'd rather repeat a shootout against four enemies five times because I made a mistake or played poorly than blast through 20 enemies in one shootout without really feeling in danger.

They manage that quite well with some of the animals, your horse senses a cougar and gets agitated before you know it's there, then there's a growl from the bushes, then it's charging at you and absolutely lethal if you let it get close. They didn't have five cougars roaring every three seconds while prowling the middle of the road who each hit you for 10% health

equinox_code

I guess I have come full circle with this. From wow, to bitter disappointment, and now almost back to wow again. Almost. Yes missions are structured in a very restrictive and uninspired way, and yes the game seems to strive to remove all challenge or skill or reasons to explore, but beyond that it's still fucking great. I'm pretty much done with the story now (done the first few missions of the epilogue) and am mostly just pootling about, sometimes on foot and sometimes on horse, never at full speed, vaguely hunting, occasionally robbing, interacting with people when I can. Radar off. Auto aim off. This is the game at its best.

equinox_code

The attention to detail in this game is what makes pootling rewarding, and I love it. Other devs might have a tree model which they tweak 3 times then copy and paste all over the place. But Rockstar have 100 trees, and within those different trees there are countless micro variations. trees for every biome imaginable. trees of varying age and decay. Trees that have been hit by lightning. Trees with initials carved into the bark. Trees bursting through walls. Trees battling to stay upright. Trees that have been scratched at by wild animals and trees that are entangled with each other. Weathered trees, poisoned trees, nutrient starved trees, trees with their roots protruding, trees that are somehow dead or even just dead on one side. Trees with bodies handing from their branches, or maybe a handmade swing. Trees with nests or deformities or disease or countless other details that tell a story of some sort. And that's just trees, because actually this level of attention to detail carries over into everything else too, the rivers, lakes, rocks or any other geological formations. Impressive as fuck.

Escape

If only you could talk to these trees...

I've only played the original, but loved its mountain river near the end. Rockstar still make the best worlds, they're just way off the pace for gameplay.

equinox_code

The gameplay is hit and miss for me. in rdr2's case I love all the immersive elements, including clunky controls and minor maintenance tasks that slow the pace. I think these details go some way to realising their games' potential, and they would only ever work in a Rockstar game too. Other devs simply don't have either the skill or resources to build a world where slowing the journey from A to B can be so much more rewarding and enjoyable.

But their mission structure is outdated, boring and repetitive. I can see why they do things the way they do. It's a formula that lends itself very well to an extremely consistent and high level of polish, and Rockstar games are especially good at rounding off the rough edges other devs neglect. But that tightly controlled cinematography comes at a high cost, namely that it's all spectacle and no fun, and I really don't think it's worth it.

Hopefully they realise they need to move beyond this template.

Escape

I think the problem is that we've slid off the mainstream radar, so as much as some devs might be interested in building up to big shootouts over the full course, it'd be commercial suicide.

Or would it... At this point, maybe there are enough of us who'd be into an Unforgiven lifestyle sim of farming crops to afford a couple of guns and a horse, progressing to odd-jobbing for ammo and feed.

Alternatively, The Outlaw Josey Wales frontloads action ahead of a scenic lull to set up its finale. RDR2 offers breathtaking scenery, and you're welcome to enjoy it on your own time, but it's not the story-driver it could be.

I've long had the same criticism of GTAs, where I'd like to get my first gun a third of the way through, instead of being a tank by then. There's so much more of interest re: virtual agency than shooting folk.

RamSteelwood

it's a tough thing to balance really. to make combat missions more challenging you basically either have bullet sponge enemies (which i hate), or ever increasing numbers of enemies (which gets ridiculous narratively), or lots of sudden death situations where you kind of have to learn the mission through death and repetition (which gets frustrating and irritating IMO).
RDR2 goes for the more enemies option and to be honest it's the right one for me, even when it does get a bit monotonous. It would be very brave of them to keep the numbers realistic and effectively not increase the difficulty and just rely on the narrative to make doing the next mission compelling.

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