For me that's the wrong approach. 

Dying or failing during a mission in RDR2 is frustrating because the missions themselves test nothing but your patience. Shooting is a case of just hitting auto-aim repeatedly to lock on, then pulling the trigger until the waves of spawning enemies stop. There is no skill or ability involved at any stage. There is nothing to improve upon. Nobody gets better at RDR2 by playing it more, because at a fundamental level the missions are utterly mindless. When you aren't enduring the endless smoke and mirror shooting gallery, you're following tightly controlled prompts on screen like some elaborately decorated game of Simon Says. 

Hold R to crouch. Follow exactly in this persons footsteps. Go and stand on the yellow marker and wait for your next instructions. Now tap A 20 times to do [random activity]. No shooting until we tell you to. There are many exits but you must take the one highlighted. Chase the man on foot. After 1 minute- no more and no less- you will catch up with him. 

You can't even test creativity in your approach to tasks when everything is so tightly scripted like this. The game even acknowledges how fucking boring the missions are by putting checkpoints every 10 seconds; they're aware that forcing people to replay any more than this would drive people mad.

The way to improve it seems obvious to me. They've created a potentially incredible sandbox, ffs lean into it. Sure, for an assassination mission, for example, you could force me to sit atop the most scenic lookout point, in a very specific location, at the most photogenic time of day, and then follow a predetermined escape path that leads to a predictable shoot out..

OR you could let me find my own place to shoot from. Maybe I fail because I picked a shit spot, so next time I try to find a better one. Maybe allow me to locate my target's escape horse and kill it in advance. Maybe allow me to identify the point where I will get ambushed during the retreat and plot a path that avoids this location. Maybe I wait until it rains to throw the guard dogs' scent off. Maybe I wait until night because a watchman is sleeping. Allow some creativity because there is actually none as things stand

You'd kill the target's horse? What the fuck is wrong with you?

Its a good point though - Maybe I was just more inventive back then but I found GTA 3 was really fun when you went outside the expected with the mission. I remember having trouble with an early one with a limo you had to smash or something before it got to a house. After several restarts , I stole a load of cars and placed them in front of the destination and then started the mission. The Limo got stuck and the target got smashed. Happy days.

If you're going to build a sandbox, take the reigns off and let us play. One thing that also puts me off (but is still impressive in many games) is the well defined character you are playing. I cant go on a murder spree in RDR2 because it really would jar with the Arthur in the cut scenes who I'm controlling

The shittiest thing I got the game to acknowledge happened during an attempted robbery of some random who was camping by the river. he pleaded that he had no money so then I shot his dog and suddenly he was able to find 61 cents or something somewhere in his pockets. I can’t remember exactly what Arthur said in this moment but it played really nicely into the total areshole role play thing I was doing at the time

RedDave2 wrote:

Maybe I was just more inventive back then but I found GTA 3 was really fun when you went outside the expected with the mission.

Vice City was arguably the peak for mission freedoms, where you could sometimes park a chopper in a tiny pre-mission space to make it laughably easy, or do the whole thing on a scooter for a challenge if you fancied. San Andreas was a noticeable step back from this, and GTA4 a massive one.

Missions became railroaded to showcase Houser's writing, barring the sandboxing of old to fit his narratives cohesively, which were mostly random bollocks anyway. That said, sandboxing's also boring if it's all there is.

Like Noxy's assassination example, you can have large freedoms of approach within fixed stories. I don't care for x-ray vision or gore, but otherwise...



Hitman 3 with vehicles is there for the making.

Wouldn't disagree with any of that, but still my favourite story game ever (I reckon your gripes are similarly looking for bad things in an ocean of brilliance).

Where are you up to now in the story?

Arthur's really fantastic. I'm impressed how they took what at first appears to be a somewhat generic character template and then added all this nuance and subtlety to him. I really can't fault him as a central protagonist, and it's easy to imagine how other devs would have cut corners on the important details and we'd just be left with a dull cliche. 

Anyway, I certainly don't feel like I'm looking for fault, rather I find it especially hard to ignore. I can't remember ever playing a game that was so spoiled and yet still so excellent. Like I really hate some of the design decisions. All devs make mistakes but some of the ones here are actual tragedies. If I had the energy to make a list of my top 5 worst design decisions of all time, it wouldn't surprise me if this game held down most places on this list, that's how much it bothers me.

And yet I'm still playing it every day. An all time classic. I think I'm maybe half way through the epilogue? I'm really taking my time; doing maybe 1 story mission per day at max (this helps to keep my cash low), walking often, slowing pace when the scenery is pretty, finding shelter during storms, switch map off whenever I can, hunting animals, searching for homesteads to rob, engaging in weird little role plays as I meet and interact with people, sometimes being good to people and other times being an outrageous dick. I think I fast travelled once since I started playing? Won't be doing that again. This is the game at its best

It’s a bonkers piece of work really. I think it’s my all timer but the faults are all the more obvious because of how of how good the world, writing and delivery is.
I played the critical missions slowly and as a means to an end but the stuff in between all that is where this really shines. I treat this as a tourist simulator - the same as I do with GTA - but here the pace of the world allows you space to make your own way at your own speed. I’ve tapped out early on in every GTA as it’s too hyperactive - I’d love to explore what they build but the speed at which stuff is thrown at me and the nasty edge to everyone forced me to stress and resent the place. whereas the speed which RDR moves allows me the room to meander and take stuff in.

It really is a remarkable achievement.

Noxy, when you've totally finished it let us know so we can all have a natter about some key bits again.

Just completed chapter 1 and loving it so far. The writing and characters are great. It’s been perhaps over ten years or so since I played Red Dead 1 and have settled right back in again to this world and characters. Might be the game to get me back into long-form gaming again.

This really is the best game to play after a smoke. I fire it up when feeling normal and it's all just functional; move from point A to B, racing line all the way, no time for anyone or anything else but the objective. But then hand me the controller after a smoke and suddenly I'm walking everywhere. Taking in the morning air. Who's that guy looking at me funny? He better not give me beef when I walk into him. *pistol whip to the back of the head. Oh what's that, you need help with that snake bite? Maybe after I finish my cigarette.

Having a love burst for this. All the villages and settlements are superb. They layout, character, aesthetic, mood etc; all are so diverse and with so much attention to detail. Been trying to hangout in Van Horn but it's almost impossible without getting started on, which inevitably snowballs into the whole town trying to kick my head in. In between getting bouts of getting battered I noticed that it appears to be the only area where rats are happily coexisting with people. You can just walk right over to them and they will chill at your feet.

It's criminally neglected by R* in favour of GTAO. Imagine how much great story DLC we could've had.

RDRO gets a battering by fans too for how poorly it's supported. I guess there is a bit of a storyline there if you're desperate but I loved the main game and still haven't spent more than an hour or so in the online component, it's a bit soulless.

I'd try the online if it was designed and optimised to offer the fullest experience too all, but it isn't. Rather they wanted to milk players for more money like in GTA online, but the western setting doesn't really allow for this without arbitrarily gating all the fun behind excessive grind.