Thread of the Cancellèd - The Bear and Badger

davyK

If the statute of limitations has prevented some cases progressing then that is problematic. And it does make it a mite tricky as you are left with are accusations.

Typically one gets an avalanche of those - it seems to reach a critical number of accusations and the sheer volume of them builds a case. Predators don't stop what they are doing and I'd imagine fresh evidence would have been appearing.

Funkstain

Davy have you looked into this yet beyond your reckons of the situation? There is quite a lot of material to get through.

There's devil's advocate and then there's being on the side of the devil - you either believe the many many people who have come forward and accused Spacey of assault, grooming and worse, or you believe Spacey, I guess, and that's really what it comes down to.

When you talk about legal cases and jury trials and so on you're talking about something different - burden of proof, innocent until that burden is clearly lifted, and then the fucker actually going to jail, losing his liberty etc.

This is not that - this is people in his industry, his potential employers, choosing to believe his accusers and therefore not providing him with employment. He remains rich, supported, and at liberty

It's not comparable

Funkstain

Funnily enough Hair's statement holds up if you're talking about a person losing their liberty over accusations.

You can choose to believe a ton of witnesses regarding UFOs / Spacey but our justice system is such that you can't expect a judiciary to agree they exist / he committed a crime without eliminating reasonable doubt

Roujin

I can't help but feel there are some awful parallels between Spacey and Saville and other famous abusers fwiw it seems to be exactly the same pattern in terms of how he is being dealt with in light of allegations made against him during the height of his fame only really coming back to deliver justice decades after the fact.

Playing devils advocate is one thing, but playing devils advocate when one side of the issue is a long line of people making very serious allegations of sexual assault and basically not getting justice or even getting their cases heard at all because of how shit judicial systems are at handling cases of sexual assault and rape and bringing them to trial is a bit ehhhhhhh.

davyK

Funkstain wrote:

Davy have you looked into this yet beyond your reckons of the situation? There is quite a lot of material to get through. There's devil's advocate and then there's being on the side of the devil - you either believe the many many people who have come forward and accused Spacey of assault, grooming and worse, or you believe Spacey, I guess, and that's really what it comes down to. When you talk about legal cases and jury trials and so on you're talking about something different - burden of proof, innocent until that burden is clearly lifted, and then the fucker actually going to jail, losing his liberty etc. This is not that - this is people in his industry, his potential employers, choosing to believe his accusers and therefore not providing him with employment. He remains rich, supported, and at liberty It's not comparable

I haven't looked into it. I have to admit that.

It's just it has gone very quiet. And then there's a post about him getting back into the business. I have just responded to that without doing any digging.

These things have not been very quiet as a rule. Maybe that is because there is a huge case still being compiled. I can't imagine he would be getting any work though if that were the case.

I genuinely find it puzzling.

Re a case - if there is a volume of evidence that is consistent then I'm pretty sure that a conviction would be possible. Ensuring enough is admissable and cranks* are filtered out would be key.

*I'm thinking about cases here in the UK that went on for far too long despite some ludicrous claims (Jimmy Tarbuck and Paul Gambacinni spring to mind).

davyK

I like that phrase "your reckons of the situation".

It sums up my analysis precisely.

Roujin

For information THIS is the current status of the allegations against Spacey.

Ch'boi Wikipedia wrote:

Legal issues

The Los Angeles District Attorney's office stated in April 2018 that it would investigate an allegation that Spacey had sexually assaulted an adult male in 1992.[135][136] In July 2018, three more allegations of sexual assault against Spacey were revealed by Scotland Yard, bringing the total number of open investigations in the UK to six.[137] In September 2018, a lawsuit filed at Los Angeles Superior Court claimed that Spacey sexually assaulted an unnamed masseur at a house in Malibu, California, in October 2016.[138]

In December 2018, Spacey was charged with a felony for allegedly sexually assaulting journalist Heather Unruh's 18-year-old son in Nantucket, Massachusetts, in July 2016.[139] Spacey pleaded not guilty to the charge on January 7, 2019.[140][141] Unruh's son told police he was texting with his girlfriend throughout the alleged "groping" incident. Spacey's defense attorneys spent months trying to obtain copies of the texts and the phone itself. In mid-May 2019, Unruh's son's personal attorney informed the court that the cell phone in question is "missing".[142] On June 4, 2019, the defense learned that when Unruh gave her son's cell phone to police in 2017, she admitted she had deleted some of the text messages.[142] Later that month, her son filed a lawsuit against Spacey, claiming emotional damages. On July 5, 2019, he voluntarily dismissed the claims with prejudice.[143]

On July 17, 2019, the criminal assault charge against Spacey was dropped by the Cape and Islands prosecutors.[144] When the anonymous massage therapist who accused him died, the last remaining criminal case against Spacey was closed.[145]

On September 9, 2020, Rapp sued Spacey for sexual assault, sexual battery, and intentional infliction of emotional distress under the Child Victims Act, which extended New York's statute of limitations for civil suits related to child sexual abuse.[146] Joining Rapp in the suit against Spacey was a man who requested to remain anonymous who accused Spacey of sexually abusing him in 1983, when he was 14 and Spacey was 24.[147]

poprock

Yeah, there are a whole bunch of ‘open investigations’ here in the UK from when Spacey was running the Old Vic theatre in London. I think the last thing I read on the matter was about the theatre’s own internal handling of things, and mentioned more than 20 victims with 14 of them being encouraged to go to the Police.

cockbeard

Scout wrote:

He also announced that he was gay. As if that somehow made things alright.

This thing really pisses me off

There's already enough sexually repressed idiots that thing homosexuality is a form of deviancy, without cunts like him and Schofield coming out to cover up their grooming. It stains a community with their shitty perversions, worse a community they've never been a part of because they live in their privilege cucooons

Scout

Schofield?

cockbeard

Oli o tools, Matthew mcgeavy

Admittedly both 18 but certainly seems dubious

davyK

That pattern of behaviour of Spacey indicated by that wiki is disturbing. What disturbs me more is the ability of predators to pick the "right" people - as evidenced there too.

The UK cases seems to be still live though. So there is that.

regmcfly

I think there was also something about one of the cases falling through recently because one of the accusers did not want to waive their anonymity.

davyK

Aye. Spacey knows how to pick 'em it seems.

DrewMerson

tin_robot

regmcfly wrote:

I think there was also something about one of the cases falling through recently because one of the accusers did not want to waive their anonymity.

Yeah, it’s the case regarding assault and battery of an anonymous 14 year old alongside the case made by Anthony Rapp. The judge said that if he wasn’t prepared to drop his anonymity, the case couldn’t proceed. He wasn’t, so it hasn’t. Which seems to have emboldened Spacey somewhat. Im not sure if this means Rapp’s case is also dropped by association, or if he has to start again from scratch.

regmcfly

DrewMerson wrote:

Davy, I don’t want to get into an argument, but please be careful when deciding to play Devil’s Advocate on a subject. A lot of the time it’s fine, but it has the potential to be harmful. In the case of any form of sexual abuse, a primary fear people have is that they won’t be believed if they come forward. Let’s say a member of our forum has been subjected to some form of sexual violence or abuse (it’s not out with the realms of possibility, by any means) particularly at the hands of someone like Spacey; reading dismissive remarks could fuel their concerns about coming forward.

By the way, it’s not entirely accurate to say that ‘predators don’t stop’. Sexual offenders have factors which trigger their offending, and some of those can be situational. It is by no means uncommon to find periods of offending behaviour mixed with periods of inactivity. That can also mean that somebody can offend throughout their twenties and thirties then stop.

This is a good post.

davyK

DrewMerson wrote:

Davy, I don’t want to get into an argument, but please be careful when deciding to play Devil’s Advocate on a subject. A lot of the time it’s fine, but it has the potential to be harmful. In the case of any form of sexual abuse, a primary fear people have is that they won’t be believed if they come forward. Let’s say a member of our forum has been subjected to some form of sexual violence or abuse (it’s not out with the realms of possibility, by any means) particularly at the hands of someone like Spacey; reading dismissive remarks could fuel their concerns about coming forward. By the way, it’s not entirely accurate to say that ‘predators don’t stop’. Sexual offenders have factors which trigger their offending, and some of those can be situational. It is by no means uncommon to find periods of offending behaviour mixed with periods of inactivity. That can also mean that somebody can offend throughout their twenties and thirties then stop.

I'm not looking for an argument. My remarks were not made dismissively.

In recent times, high profile cases have arisen and prosecutions achieved via volumes of people brave enough to make accusations.

I was observing the fact that this quite high profile case has yet to result in any successful prosecution. That on its own doesn't mean anything. But when twinned with that post about Spacey seemingly getting back to work made me question what was happening. If he is back to work that is highly significant. If the role he is to play is what it is claimed to be , even more so.

I have prompted a robust response in doing that. Fair enough. I'd expect nothing less.But I will continue to ask uncomfortable questions if I feel the need.

There is an edge to conversations like this. It's an emotive subject. But such questions need to be asked as a test as to the veracity of such accusations as they can be deeply damaging and opinions can be formed very quickly which have a very long half life.

Asking a question is not making a statement. I wasn't prompting a Socratic dialogue. I'm not smart enough to do that.

I take your point about cycles of behaviour.

Yossarian

The deeply damaging, quickly formed opinions cut both ways in cases like this. The victims are tarred too when people are just asking questions about whether they are to be believed.

acemuzzy

If he is back to work that is highly significant.

Why is that "highly significant" when the multiple accusations are not?

such questions need to be asked as a test as to the veracity of such accusations

This is nonsense. They in no way test the veracity of the claims.

davyK

Yossarian wrote:

The deeply damaging, quickly formed opinions cut both ways in cases like this. The victims are tarred too when people are just asking questions about whether they are to be believed.

Just because I didn't say that doesn't mean I don't believe that. Of course it cuts both ways. I thought we were better than that here. Do I really need state things like that?

There's a tone emerging here and I'm not sure I like it.

davyK

acemuzzy wrote:

If he is back to work that is highly significant.

Why is that "highly significant" when the multiple accusations are not?

such questions need to be asked as a test as to the veracity of such accusations

This is nonsense. They in no way test the veracity of the claims.

Multiple accusations need to be credible and have a certain level of consistency.

I was clumsy saying "test". But questions do need to be asked when accusations don't go further than that and yet someone is affected by them.

Yossarian

davyK wrote:

Yossarian wrote:

The deeply damaging, quickly formed opinions cut both ways in cases like this. The victims are tarred too when people are just asking questions about whether they are to be believed.

Just because I didn't say that doesn't mean I don't believe that. Of course it cuts both ways. I thought we were better than that here. Do I really need state things like that?

There's a tone emerging here and I'm not sure I like it.

There was no tone intended in my post.

davyK

I don't mean tone from you @Yossarian. Sorry if I came across personal there.

Maybe I'm just being way out of whack and out of touch. I seem to have come in here with my clown's shoes on again.

I genuinely don't see what I'm saying is wrong.

I'd back action to dig that bastard Saville up and fucking hang what's left of him until there is nothing left - with no court case - so I am being inconsistent here. I don't think anyone doubts that monster was guilty.

It's just the Spacey accusations were made some time ago. That doesn't mean he is innocent. But it doesn't mean he is guilty either. But that news about him playing the part of a wrongly accused peado is so close to the bone I can't believe whoever is funding that knows something we don't.

It's such a offbeat move I can't believe anyone would take the risk. Of course it could be fake and then it's as we where.

If he has found someone who will just brazen it out it's equally disturbing and the business has to have a look at itself.

Is it because of the homosexual angle for example? If they can hook Weinstein then why not Spacey? Is it because gay victims are less likely to come forward? That's a pretty terrifying idea.

Funkstain

It may be worth taking a closer look at this production taking him on. It’s not exactly a high profile massive budget star vehicle.

I’m sorry if there’s a tone being adopted or picked up on. I just think it’s worth looking into things a bit more before making any kind of suggestions, or asking any questions casting doubt on the accusers / their allegations. You may still hold the same views after the research, of course.

For what it’s worth, I hardly think that some dodgy vanity producer bringing him on for the infamy is some kind of validation of spacey, nor any indication that he knows anything about the allegations beyond spacey’s protestations.

davyK

I'm sorry if I was read as doubting any accusers etc. That really wasn't the intention.

I'd like to think I can ask questions here before doing research too, but that's a point worth making. I should probably qualify myself before doing that. Maybe I should have looked into that production before weighing in. Not the first time I've blundered in.

Yossarian

I think there’s been a fairly big cultural shift in how these things are viewed over the past five or ten years. For a lot of people, believing the accuser will now be the default position because the damage that can be done to victims if they aren’t believed is far greater than that which is likely to be done to the accused.

Personally, I think that this is a change for the good.

It may be that things swing too far in this direction and people start making accusations maliciously knowing that they’ll be believed. If that does come to pass, then maybe we reconsider, but for the time being, I’m comfortable with how things stand.

davyK

A swing is pretty much inevitable. But I think the industry needs to get its act together and provide safe working environments at the very least. The rich can look after themselves, but a safe environment can work for all no matter how far it swings back and forth.

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/features/kevin-spacey-film-man-who-drew-god-b1853033.html

I agree with the sentiment above that at the very least this production is in appalling taste, and worse, sends out a rather disturbing message.

DrewMerson

davyK

It's good we can discuss it. I felt I was being thought of as someone who would be an apologist for these types of people. That was foolish of me. No fault of anyone here. It's too easy to pick up the wrong tone in posts but I should know better as this place is way above that.

I like to think this place is good for genuine discussion and challenges. It's unique in that respect. I tend to think and post on the hoof and maybe I need to reflect on that. I like thinking out loud - esp on subjects I haven't really thought about or read around too much as I like a collaborative approach to opinion forming and I like to learn from people and dialogue as well as reading.

Inevitably that can sound challenging to people and it's better to do it IRL than on a forum. But this place is so good I feel I can do it. That doesn't always reflect on me too well though.

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