cockbeard wrote:

Funkstain wrote:

I’m not gonna judge anyone for playing Michael Jackson but I don’t anymore

I think that's the crux of it

I mean the whole judging shit is what "cancel culture" is, and that is toxic as fook. On the flip though, there's absolutely no doubt that metoo empowered many victims/survivors of abuse to come forward and realise that they weren't alone. Though that's very different to a simple pile-on which is unfortunately what we see rather more often

I very rarely see anything online these days which I would describe as a simple pile-on, at least, nothing that extends beyond a few replies among a small group of people, and almost never anything that results in any real-world consequences.

Maybe it’s to do with who I follow on social media, maybe I’m just missing something, maybe we have different definitions of a simple pile on, but in my experience, I would say that I am far, far more likely to see people calling out actual abuse than engaging in pile-ons.

It did feel like there were more pile-ons happening a few years ago, but I’m not convinced that’s the case any more. Possibly related to the fact that over the past few years actual nazis have proven themselves to be alive and well in America.

He’s had another Netflix special since then and it seems that there’ll be a third season of Master of None next month. He doesn’t seem to have been too badly screwed over, TBH.

Yossarian wrote:

He’s had another Netflix special since then and it seems that there’ll be a third season of Master of None next month. He doesn’t seem to have been too badly screwed over, TBH.

I googled it after posting as I couldn't quite remember everything, and yeah seems he's had his rep dented but has carried on.

The whole Noel Clarke thing is so distressing. First and foremost my sympathy is obviously with the women who came forward to out him (and if there's 20 it's hard to believe there won't be a lot more) but I also can't help feel utterly depressed for all the people in his orbit that his actions will have a negative effect on in the industry. For instance ITV have decided not to air the final episode of Viewpoint, the 5 part thriller that was on this week. How fucking gutting for all the cast and crew that must have poured their lives into that. I then think about his production company. He's long championed diversity and up and coming talent. I bet there's a bunch of projects on his company's slate from young, talented writers from unrepresented backgrounds now cut adrift because he turned out to be a cunt.

Yossarian wrote:

I very rarely see anything online these days which I would describe as a simple pile-on, at least, nothing that extends beyond a few replies among a small group of people, and almost never anything that results in any real-world consequences. 

Maybe it’s to do with who I follow on social media, maybe I’m just missing something, maybe we have different definitions of a simple pile on, but in my experience, I would say that I am far, far more likely to see people calling out actual abuse than engaging in pile-ons.

Yeah, I think this is right. This idea of cancel culture is hugely exaggerated. There aren't people losing their livelihoods left, right and centre because of online allegations and pile-ons. There are a handful of examples which get cited over and over when people try to drum up outrage about this. It's not a 'culture' by any stretch.

Kow wrote:

Chuck Berry was an absolute cunt on so many levels, but I'd say he's the single most important person in modern music. Johnny B. Goode is even traveling across the universe in Voyager, ffs.

I wonder if Bach was a cunt too.....

I think you're replying to earlier posts, my bad.

No, I'm not saying that.

Kow wrote:

No, I'm not saying that.

Yeah I realised my mistake but I don't like to delete posts to hide my error, sorry pal.

nick_md wrote:

No, I'm not saying that.

Yeah I realised my mistake but I don't like to delete posts to hide my error, sorry pal.

It is still a worthwhile point to raise as some people (not here probably) think it may be. Sporting heroes, particularly a lot of football players are hardly role models, but "we" seem to tolerate their off pitch antics because they can kick a ball about.  Admittedly that tolerance may now be on the wane.

I have plenty of thoughts about this, I dunno that it's worth going on about, especially when it would require explaining many things, but one part of it is: cancel culture is a dangerous term because it is a way of horrible people fighting back against perfectly normal consequences to saying awful things. If some youtuber gets dogpiled for saying something stupid, then they lose their youtuber fame and people cry "cancel culture" it lets people who do reprehensible things get away with worse, and then recruiting people to their cause by saying it's cancel culture. It's also interestingly how predominant cultural power structures reinforce this stuff.

The other part is that if you want to use the power of people to gain money, fame, adoration, etc, you have to understand that they will turn on you. Parasocial relationships buy you a lot of cache with people, but then people also hold you to standards, especially if you are also seen to be holding people to standards too. I see it a lot, and ultimately it always seems to blow over because if people like someone, they will often continue to like them regardless of what they do. You can also get away with a lot if you rebrand, repent, cover up and so on. 

Two gaming related examples of sort of "cancel" stuff: Nick of Polygon fame was outed as a letch, he now regularly gets millions of views on youtube, happy days. Filip Miucin was outed as a serial plagiariser. He got fired, did his time, now gets by modestly it seems. Some people really just thought he should be able to go back to doing what he wants to, cos that's fair.

Anyway, gone on longer than expected, but it's complex. The Lindsay Ellis thing recently is... vaguely interesting. Big case of live by the sword die by the sword. When the mob turns, it turns. She still has 10,000 patrons paying either £2 or £8 a month, so minimum £2k. Not bad for someone who is cancelled: she didn't deserve it, but she should have been more careful about what she said given the context. She's still getting on ok.

DrewMerson wrote:

For the record, in case my posts are being misunderstood: I do not think that there is such a thing as ‘cancel culture’, and agree that the term is only used by those seeking to defend shitty behaviour. I am not defending shitty behaviour. I am not arguing against people being called out for shitty behaviour.

In case you thought my post was about you - it wasn't. I was just commenting on the thread in general.