The Car thread - The Bear and Badger

GooberTheHat

Isn't it quite energy intensive to produce?

yourfavouriteuncle

It is but then the mining of rare earth stuff for EV’s will get lobbed back at you now. It’s almost like there’s some group of hidden yet giant industrial forces trying to subtlety change public perceptions here. One’s saying tomato and the other is saying tamaytoooooooo.

Minnesänger

Hydrogen could deffo be a thing in future, and i'd be surprised if the tech disappears entirely, but when planning for the next 20 - 30 years, you need to consider international standards, available tech, production ramp ups etc.

Even if the UK decided to focus on Hydrogen, then what? International manufacturing of cars is now majorly EV focussed and it's asking a lot for the UK to go against that. Are we going to make our own hydrogen cars? How long will that take to go through the process of R&D, design, scaling up production etc.

EV sales and production currently sit at just above 6 million units (2021), with scaling up to 25-30 million units within the next 5-7 years, and more than 60 million per year by 2040 (if projections are accurate). It takes time to scale those numbers - and even though hydrogen could rely more on existing infrastructure, I doubt it would be viable in that same timeframe. It would mean we would 100% miss our targets for phasing out petrol and diesel cars.

And even if the UK could go hydrogen, and could develop their own cars (or get existing companies that tinker with hydrogen, like Toyota) to make a whole bunch of cars just for the UK market, and could scale up production in the same time frame, and could adopt the tech without absolutely fucking our environmental targets...then what? We sit alone while the rest of the world adopts EVs as the defacto standard which, lets remember, means all international energy production will be aimed at interacting with EV charging, electric generation etc.

Hydro is cool, but it absolutely makes sense to me to focus hard on EVs first, and I don't believe that our infrastructure couldn't be good enough - Norway and China show you can absolutely get viable EV charging and support networks up and running in even the most remote and harshest environments. It's a question of political will, nothing else.

cockbeard

Revival of the British car industry, why not

Leyland to be the goto name for hydrogen powered vehicles

Escape

Not bothering to do something positive and potentially future-necessary because results wouldn't be seen for some time is a weak argument. Especially when EVs will remain out of reach for many people for just as long, reinforcing our haves/have-nots market through wealth and geography.

It's not happening because there's less profit in it, and that's where governments should intervene. The leftwing govs we don't have.

poprock

Bigger picture, I think that if we bet on fusion becoming a commercial reality within our lifetimes, then electric cars are the best option for the mass market - cheap clean electricity makes it so.

Before I believed fusion was really on the horizon I would have said go with hydrogen for cars etc … but now I reckon fusion will be ready by the time hydrogen would be viable at scale.

There’s still the battery problem to solve though. Mining asteroids to keep making them the same way we do now isn’t really a sensible suggestion …

We need to keep looking at hydrogen as a fuel for bigger vehicles - for logistics, trucks, shipping, etc. electric is less practical for lugging big loads over long distances. You can store more energy in a smaller, lighter space if you think of liquid hydrogen as your battery.

On a different subject, I think e-fuels are promising. They’re basically biofuel/ethanol from sustainable fast growing crop sources and you can use them in your existing petrol/diesel cars. They’re expensive, but getting massively cheaper as big business ramps up production. They’ve already been adopted by motorsport at many levels of competition. So e-fuels are the way forward for classic cars, specialists, and so on. And maybe for communities who want to keep old cars running (Cuba, anyone?)

Minnesänger

Escape wrote:

Not bothering to do something positive and potentially future-necessary because results wouldn't be seen for some time is a weak argument. Especially when EVs will remain out of reach for many people for just as long, reinforcing our haves/have-nots market through wealth and geography.

It's not happening because there's less profit in it, and that's where governments should intervene. The leftwing govs we don't have.

It’s not a weak argument when we have climate targets set in stone and urgent action is needed. If switching to focus on hydrogen now would mean that we have to use fossil fuel cars for an extra 10 years beyond when we play to phase them, that would be disastrous for the environment and public health.

As for the price of EVs - they’re getting cheaper and cheaper and European prices right now are not indicative of the cost elsewhere, especially in Asia. They will not remain out of reach of the general populace if, and it’s a big if, they’re properly supported and there’s government policies in place to drive adoption.

Abandoning a push towards EV infrastructure to do Hydrogen when no one else is doing it isn’t because the evil people secretly wanna extract those EV big bucks. Hydrogen isn’t ready - delaying going renewable to wait for hydrogen to be ready will mean MORE PROFIT for the oil corps, it’ll mean more cases of asthma and dementia from fumes (which hurt the poor and vulnerable the most).

Not every policy is an attack on the poor, sometimes it’s just common sense and cynicism will only lead you to worse decisions that hurt the people you’re trying to help.

jdanielp

As I understand it, for hydrogen to be practicle we will need to have more clean electricity than we know what to do with due to a combination of the energy required to extract hydrogen and the relative inefficiency when converting it into electricity. Hydrogen vehicles still need battery packs anyway so it's not like we won't still be mining then. The short term 'solution' is far fewer, smaller vehicles/mass transit, but try selling that to consumers. Hydrogen should certainly still be developed.

Bob

I've got this in stock now available for immediate delivery. Mates Rates.

Minnesänger

jdanielp wrote:

Hydrogen should certainly still be developed.

Agreed, it’s good tech - it should deffo be developed, just not as the cost of putting in all the EV infrastructure we currently are.

MattyJ

Bob wrote:

I've got this in stock now available for immediate delivery. Mates Rates.

£10?

Minkymu

Bob wrote:

I've got this in stock now available for immediate delivery. Mates Rates.

Thats probs been fraped more the my mrs asshole

Escape

Minnesänger wrote:

They will not remain out of reach of the general populace if, and it’s a big if, they’re properly supported and there’s government policies in place to drive adoption.

Would change everything in the UK, but we've no present hope of it. £5k's the ceiling for a lot of us, making it easy to fear abandonment under our rightwing parties.

I couldn't run a charging cable 50ft over a pavement, and our rural charging situ's currently dire. EVs are on target to be a largely middle-class preserve for at least another decade.

bad_hair_day

Escape wrote:

£5k's the ceiling for a lot of us...

A ton and two monkeys, talk to me.

Escape

No rain cover, no deal.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/dacia-spring-ev-looking-very-positive-uk-sale

That minimum price, equivalent to £10,630, positions the Spring alongside a mid-range, conventionally fuelled Sandero in terms of cost.

The French government currently offers a grant to buyers of sub-€45,000 EVs amounting to 27% of the cost of purchase, including tax, and a further €2500 if the EV is bought in exchange for an older ICE car to be scrapped.

So £5,638 if I scrapped mine. It's an uninspiring motor, but that's where the UK needs to be, alongside grants for street chargers.

bad_hair_day

Minnesänger

Escape wrote:

So £5,638 if I scrapped mine. It's an uninspiring motor, but that's where the UK needs to be, alongside grants for street chargers.

Yeah, and that’s why I fundamentally disagree with the assertion that affordable EVs for the average consumer are a decade away. That’s kinda true only if you ignore what is coming out of Eastern Europe. India, China, South America etc.

These cars are good and they are cheap. They’re also super basic, and that’s fine. Rural coverage is also possible. Norway has proved it. China is proving it. If the UK can’t get a decent network going in 5 years with multiple affordable subsidised options below 8K in that time, it won’t be because the tech isn’t there. It actually exists today, around the world, and is available to billions of people.

Minnesänger

This car is 7k GBP without trade in. It’s also lovely. The gov needs to move heaven and earth to get these cars into the local market. With extra subsidies for scrapping your old petrol motor, you could probably get this sub-5 (although Chinese cars tend to launch more expensive in overseas markets because of local price expectations).

Unlikely

Minnesänger wrote:

It’s also lovely.

In what way??

Minnesänger

Unlikely wrote:

Minnesänger wrote:

It’s also lovely.

In what way??

Nice little simple family 4 door. Drives well, comfy to sit in, surprisingly good range. It’s safe, got good levels of finish on it despite cheap materials. No frills but at that price you’re not going to get much more. And I think it looks good, even if it is basically a Honda E rip-off.

n0face

25k UK start price. I would go and buy one now at 7k.

Escape

Wooden motors, talk to me!

Minnesänger wrote:

Rural coverage is also possible. Norway has proved it. China is proving it. If the UK can’t get a decent network going in 5 years with multiple affordable subsidised options below 8K in that time, it won’t be because the tech isn’t there.

If the UK weren't capitalist! Our street could soon be dug up to cable us, and then we'd just wait a few years for these £7k cars to halve on the used market.

Compare France's 27% reduction and €2500 to... hefty loans to boost capitalist debt for those who qualify, else fuck off if you don't.

Minnesänger

n0face wrote:

25k UK start price. I would go and buy one now at 7k.

25k start price is the Ora Good Cat rather than the Black Cat (R1), no? Same manufacturer but different cars. Don’t think the R1 is even out in the UK - the main international market for that car is India.

Escape

01, yeah. No news on the R1 for the UK.

I wouldn't mind being laughed at for driving one for £7k (although I'd want the faster one at 10,600).

n0face

Minnesänger wrote:

n0face wrote:

25k UK start price. I would go and buy one now at 7k.

25k start price is the Ora Good Cat rather than the Black Cat (R1), no? Same manufacturer but different cars. Don’t think the R1 is even out in the UK - the main international market for that car is India.

So it is. We'll I'd happily get one of they get here.