The British Politics Thread - The Bear and Badger

LivDiv

BLM, nothing but a bunch of Commi-Nazis.

LivDiv

Bloody hell

g.man

OMG!

acemuzzy

Jesus Liv. A new low.

hunk

Unashamed stupidity and ignorance reaches new levels?

SpaceGazelle

davyK wrote:

More DUP goodness. Black Lives Matter is "anti family". https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/black-lives-matter-branded-violent-18481335

Reliable if nothing else.

SpaceGazelle

Behold.

monkey

JonB wrote:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/israelis-training-us-police-on-large-scale-amnesty/ar-BB14S1z9

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-us-police-training-end-knee-neck-protests

Since his death in late May, footage of Floyd pleading: "I can't breathe" and "they're going to kill me," has emerged alongside videos and stills of Israeli security forces taking similar positions over the necks of unarmed Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and besieged Gaza Strip.

The Israeli police force has tried to distance itself from any perceived similarities, issuing statements denouncing what happened and stating that its officers are not trained to use knee-to-neck techniques.
But photographs taken as recently as March have shown Israeli forces using the same restraint on unarmed protesters just yards from the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem's Old City.

The damning imagery has revived complaints against US programmes that send American police officers to train under Israeli law enforcement and military officials, as nationwide calls for defunding and abolishing American police departments have taken hold.

Amnesty International has now issued a clarification that its report does not show any evidence of “neck kneeling” as a technique taught by the Israeli secret services, nor evidence that the Minnesota police force received training from the Israeli secret services.
In a statement to the New Statesman, the organisation said: “For years, we’ve documented appalling crimes under international law and human rights violations meted out to Palestinians by members of the Israeli security forces, though the precise nature of the training offered to US police forces by Israeli officials is not something we’ve documented.
“Allegations that US police were taught tactics of ‘neck kneeling’ by Israeli secret services is not something we’ve ever reported and the article in question has rightly been amended to acknowledge that.
“The US police themselves have a longstanding record of using excessive force against members of the public - including Black Lives Matter protesters, something we reported on earlier this week.”

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2020/06/amnesty-international-we-never-reported-neck-kneeling-taught-israelis-us

Armitage_Shankburn

They still maintain - and no Israeli denials have been issued - that the US did send PDs for training by the IDF. They can't say for sure neck kneeling is part of that training. When the Floyd murder came out, many palestinian organisations sent their support, complete with pics of similar restraints and chokes. But at any rate, the point is, what are CIVILIAN police forces doing taking instruction from an occupying force? And isn't it revealing when we see the result, the alienation of the police from its population?

Anyway, it's pretty clear that this is gonna go down as a big political miscalculation by Starmer.

Funkstain

Do you reckon? How come, due to renewed issues with left in party, and/or membership?

SpaceGazelle

Labour should've sorted this shit out ages ago and it's that legacy that he's now dealing with. I'm not saying Stalmer is right, because anyone can see she's pointing out some link that is disturbing and probably true regarding twat police tactics, but he's decided to just carpet bomb any future anti-semetic press bullshit just in case he becomes tarnished. It's always like this for the left. It's not anti-semitism he's dealing with, it's perceived anti-semitism.

It's exactly this kind of tactic that might get him voted in, although I'm not sure I'll be crossing his box but we'll see. The sad fact is that any Labour leader that does actually get voted in is probably a bit of a dick because let's face it, the public are dicks.

SpaceGazelle

In their defence it's not the public's fault. The chips are stacked.

Frosty

Which came first? The chips or the dicks?

SpaceGazelle

Both. That's capitalism for you.

monkey

Worth remembering that the EHRC report is turning up at some point. Starmers going to be up to his balls in firm and decisive action, bold measures, other pro-active phrases, to show how seriously he’s taking it all. If it seriously implicates Corbyn and McDonnell, they could go.

JonB

monkey wrote:

Amnesty International has now issued a clarification that its report does not show any evidence of “neck kneeling” as a technique taught by the Israeli secret services, nor evidence that the Minnesota police force received training from the Israeli secret services. In a statement to the New Statesman, the organisation said: “For years, we’ve documented appalling crimes under international law and human rights violations meted out to Palestinians by members of the Israeli security forces, though the precise nature of the training offered to US police forces by Israeli officials is not something we’ve documented. “Allegations that US police were taught tactics of ‘neck kneeling’ by Israeli secret services is not something we’ve ever reported and the article in question has rightly been amended to acknowledge that. “The US police themselves have a longstanding record of using excessive force against members of the public - including Black Lives Matter protesters, something we reported on earlier this week.”

Yeah, the precise allegation isn't backed up, despite the connections between IDF and US PDs and evidence that the IDF are lying about not using neck kneeling.

As Gonz says though, the point is that the US are sending PDs to be trained by the IDF, who have a reputation for brutality. We've now reached a stage where you can't mention that without accusations of anti-semitism, and Starmer's just rubber stamped that.

It doesn't surprise me at all.

Roujin

Unpopular take incoming everyone. I think inferring that the Israeli police force are in some way connected as a cause of George Floyd's murder is probably antisemitic.

From the interview with Maxine Peake: wrote:

"The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd’s neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services.” (A spokesperson for the Israeli police has denied this, stating that “there is no tactic or protocol that calls to put pressure on the neck or airway”.

To me, and I 100000% understand that I'm in a minority here, where the US sends it police for training is irrelevant, Israeli secret services (!? lolwut) won't have a restraint tactic for suspects that says to kneel on the neck for nearly 9 minutes, nor will they have a method for killing people that says to do the same either, Israel just executes people it doesn't like, they aren't wasting their time on a 9 minute asphyxiation technique.

Even though Isreal has a fucking awful track record of human rights abuses, (cross sectional article from amnesty about US police training with Israeli forces here: https://www.amnestyusa.org/with-whom-are-many-u-s-police-departments-training-with-a-chronic-human-rights-violator-israel/). There is currently no OFFICIAL part of Israeli law enforcement or suspect restraint that they will teach US officers that says to kill a man, or restrain him by kneeling on his neck for an extended length of time until he dies from lack of oxygen going to his brain. Even if they did, US police officers still have to work under their own laws and training which precludes them from restraint of suspects in the manner in which George Floyd was murdered.

To me, the inference by Peake that Israel has any responsibility at all towards George Floyd's murder because US PDs have received training there is what can be considered antisemitic. Israeli forces are not teaching American police officers to kneel on a suspect for 9 minutes until they die.

Israeli law enforcement is a human rights nightmare. Israeli law enforcement has no link to the killing of George Floyd. Both of these statements are true, imo.

I'm no Starmer fan, but if this wasn't jumped on, it was going to be another round of Labour is antisemitic lol from the right wing press.

Roujin

Sorry, I should add that I don't think Maxine Peake was intentionally making an antisemitic statement or that she is antisemetic in general. Seems like a genuine mistake, and she did make a statement to that effect, although stopped short of apologising for it.

monkey

These international training things must happen all the time with all countries. Few of them are going to have a good record on how they police minorities. But the Jew one, that's the bad one that we're going to single out. That's where US cops learned how to murder black people.

It does seem anti-semitic. There's no evidence to support the original claim at all. An 'inaccurate assumption' that singles out and is derogatory towards Israel. If it's not anti-semitism, it definitely looks, walks and quacks like it. And Starmer would have had to go around defending this. Then a report comes out saying the party is institutionally racist, and now clips go all over the place with Starmer weasling around defending some fairly ropey looking comments again. Labour need to be light years away from this stuff now. "All in past, look what we've done to sort it out." The battle is lost.

You just can't do anything about the Arab-Israeli conflict from Opposition in the UK. You might possibly be able to nudge something along slightly a bit if you're in power, behind closed doors, but that's likely not going to happen either. Forget it. You can't save the Muslims in Chinese concentration camps, free Tibet or any of it. You can help the disadvantaged in your own country if you're disciplined and not pissing around arguing over stuff you can't do anything about.

monkey

Roujin wrote:

Sorry, I should add that I don't think Maxine Peake was intentionally making an antisemitic statement or that she is antisemetic in general. Seems like a genuine mistake, and she did make a statement to that effect, although stopped short of apologising for it.

Yeah should point out I don't think anyone involved is properly anti-semitic. Everyone has prejudices and blind spots and things they just take on board without thinking or analysing too much. Most people when they realise they've made a mistake like that will feel bad and sort it out.

Armitage_Shankburn

"probably antisemitic" - can any phrase be more 2017-2019?

Here's a take I agree with..Yair Wallach (@YairWallach) Tweeted:
If you, a white English person, are talking about the systemic racism as a global issue, and the only example you come up with is "Israeli secret services taught US police how to kill black people", then it doesn't sound like you want to understand global systemic racism 1/ https://twitter.com/YairWallach/status/1276252148259487749?s=20

Edit "properly" antisemitic added, right before I post.

These are clues, folks.

monkey

Wut.

monkey

Sounds like you’re moaning that you haven’t been called racist as hard as you should have been.

Armitage_Shankburn

Why don't you go fuck yourself? I was very clear what the link is - the us PD mentality approaching that of an occupying force, rather than community policing.

Armitage_Shankburn

Armitage_Shankburn wrote:

Minneapolis and various other US PDs received training from the IDF, usually through the police unions. Israeli human rights groups have repeatedly highlighted the IDF's brutality towards Palestinians in occupied Palestine, including (inter alia), by using knee-to-neck restraints.

This is highly relevant to the discussion of the US BLM protests. Obama's reforms failed because the unions were able to continue the aggressive them-and-us training approaches. A major theme of that is the treatment by the police of the public as a hostile entity, as opposed to fellow citizens whom they serve. What better exemplar of that is there than PDs being trained by an occupying army.

Now please explain to me, how someone pointing this out is "dog whistling" or - worse- as the guardian put it, peddling conspiracy theory. It is a fact.

When conducting a debate about the militarisation of the US PDs, are we now to airbrush out any mention of the IDF? Or of Israel? You cannot mention Israel at all if it it is a pejorative mention - that's antisemitism.

Anyone who supports this point of view is spineless and cannot have my support. I know mOnkey is gonna bang on about how we need to accept Mussolini to avoid Hitler, but I don't care. I prefer honesty. We've been there before.

Anyway, I told you all about Starmer, didn't I. Don't say you weren't warned

Armitage_Shankburn

Armitage_Shankburn wrote:

"probably antisemitic" - can any phrase be more 2017-2019?

Here's a take I agree with..Yair Wallach (@YairWallach) Tweeted:
If you, a white English person, are talking about the systemic racism as a global issue, and the only example you come up with is "Israeli secret services taught US police how to kill black people", then it doesn't sound like you want to understand global systemic racism 1/ https://twitter.com/YairWallach/status/1276252148259487749?s=20

Edit "properly" antisemitic added, right before I post.

These are clues, folks.

Armitage_Shankburn

monkey wrote:

Sounds like you’re moaning that you haven’t been called racist as hard as you should have been.

You really are a shit, aren't you. Do you actually care about anything in the world beyond your own immediate material convenience? Cos all I remember at the beginning of lockdown is you moaning how awful it is to be with the kids. I don't think you actually give a shot about racism, about inequality, or any of that. I've never seen any evidence of it in many discussions here. You seem to sort of care the flavour of Tory that rules the country - you care about power, in a dramatic sort of way. But I genuinely don't recall anything coming from you that ever says you care about another human beings lot, not really.

So where you find the fucking balls to call me racist, I have no idea.

Delete your post, you fucking numpty.

JonB

Context: Maxine Peake, an activist for Palestinian rights, is drawing a parallel between racist brutality in Israel and US.

Regardless, any offence here on the part of RLB is so slight that Starmer's reaction can only be seen as a purge of the left from the shadow cabinet at the earliest opportunity. It's the first time he's reacted like this to anything, and when compared to his reaction to that leaked report a few months back, or to most of the stuff the government has been doing recently, it's screamingly inconsistent.

It's the sort of thing that could easily have been sorted out with a clarification/apology. And it's not a smart move strategically to be undermining the supposed drive for party unity so blatantly.

LivDiv

It's a proactive jump on something that would have plagued his entire leadership.
If you cant see that I wonder where you have been for the past 5 or so years.

Do you really think people would take the time to dig into links like have been posted here?
Not a chance.

The headlines would have read Starmer supports RLB over "anti semitic" article tweet.
That's about as much as most people would have read.

Roujin

I think Jon makes a valid point, that RLB really didn't make a huge error, she endorsed an article that contained a single problematic paragraph.

Liv's point is just as valid though, unfortunately if this isn't stamped on the fucking press will do it's thing and they will drag Labour back down again. At the moment, they can't touch Starmer, they tried a weak hit piece on him owning land which turned out to be a donkey sanctuary for his mum, that was their best shot. Antisemitism really did the fucking job against Corbyn though, so any hint of it and the press are going to start with the "Labour hasn't learned anything from the anti semitism that was all the fault of that threat to national security, and all around marxist enemy of the people, Jeremy Corbyn and they are still proper antisemites, look heres RLB doing it right now, shameful, this party is not fit to be anywhere near government" rhetoric that the public ate up last time around.

I agree with Jon again though, that whether intentional or not, this has been the removal of another left wing politician from the shadow cabinet by Starmer.

Howdy, Stranger!

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