Politics of the Free - It’s because Democrats, stupid. - The Bear and Badger

Funkstain

Ha formally spiteful I've got to use that in a meeting today now

Funkstain

oops

Funkstain

Anyway - Brooks is right, generational change is needed and will either come or the planet will burn us off. Biden or Trump who gives a shit. In fact if anything, I'm rather pro Trump - he can't do that much damage (too many controls on the presidency), and maybe if he gets in again, against the heroic centrists effort at evil-hidden-by-beige restoration of the "value" of the presidency, then maybe just maybe it may activate the "fuck this" clause on the centrist left and they'll finally accept a progressive candidate

poprock

Channel 4 have evidence that Cambridge Analytica’s ‘psychogeographic data’ that was supposedly destroyed/deleted is all still out there for sale and still being abused to direct US political campaigns again. Full revelations/reporting coming tomorrow, apparently.

https://www.channel4.com/news/revealed-cambridge-analytica-data-on-thousands-of-facebook-users-still-not-deleted

hunk

That data set will be abused by the right till the end of time.

poprock

For at least as long as it’s realistically useful, yeah. But this might be a good way to raise a bit more righteous anger amongst the electorate.

GooberTheHat

Funkstain wrote:

Anyway - Brooks is right, generational change is needed and will either come or the planet will burn us off. Biden or Trump who gives a shit. In fact if anything, I'm rather pro Trump - he can't do that much damage (too many controls on the presidency), and maybe if he gets in again, against the heroic centrists effort at evil-hidden-by-beige restoration of the "value" of the presidency, then maybe just maybe it may activate the "fuck this" clause on the centrist left and they'll finally accept a progressive candidate

He can do an immense amount of damage. That is a foolish take.

Funkstain

More than he's done already? Worse thing is stack the Supreme Court, and even then the Dems could expand the SC if it becomes a problem.

What's the list of actual things he can do?

Funkstain

I mean, actually will do, likely to do, likely to be able to do. So yes, in theory as CiC he can start a war. But he won't.

Funkstain

Thought experiment: if you get Biden (better of two evils!), which then leads to Trump 2.0 but worse cos capable; or you get Trump 2020, then progressive actually able to change things president and senate...

which do you take?

GooberTheHat

His entire presidency is a crossing the rubicon moment. If he has another 4 years I think democracy in America will be effectively over.

GooberTheHat

Funkstain wrote:

Thought experiment: if you get Biden (better of two evils!), which then leads to Trump 2.0 but worse cos capable; or you get Trump 2020, then progressive actually able to change things president and senate...

which do you take?

The later obviously, but they aren't the only options available, and neither are they the most likely.

GooberTheHat

Funkstain wrote:

I mean, actually will do, likely to do, likely to be able to do. So yes, in theory as CiC he can start a war. But he won't.

I'm making dinner, but I'll try and come back to this.

mistercrayon

Funkstain wrote:

Thought experiment: if you get Biden (better of two evils!), which then leads to Trump 2.0 but worse cos capable; or you get Trump 2020, then progressive actually able to change things president and senate...

which do you take?

This is such a dumb thought experiment.

hunk

GooberTheHat wrote:

His entire presidency is a crossing the rubicon moment. If he has another 4 years I think democracy in America will be effectively over.

This. Trump will fundamentally change the rules which will effectively kill US democracy. Checks and balances dismantled.

Funkstain

Absolute bum.

Funkstain

mistercrayon wrote:

Funkstain wrote:

Thought experiment: if you get Biden (better of two evils!), which then leads to Trump 2.0 but worse cos capable; or you get Trump 2020, then progressive actually able to change things president and senate...

which do you take?

This is such a dumb thought experiment.

Better than yours.

Funkstain

GooberTheHat wrote:

Funkstain wrote:

Thought experiment: if you get Biden (better of two evils!), which then leads to Trump 2.0 but worse cos capable; or you get Trump 2020, then progressive actually able to change things president and senate...

which do you take?

The later obviously, but they aren't the only options available, and neither are they the most likely.

I’d rather you came back to this actually. I’m pretty up to date on what presidents can do or not do and I have my opinion about what tromp will actually do (not a lot) and his long term impact on American politics (an aberration). But genuinely interested in how you guys see things going in US post trump, or post Biden.

GurtTractor

I saw this and remembered there was talk of voter suppression here -

Louisiana's voter registration portal mysteriously shuts down on National Voter Registration Day

The explanation given is that the portal needs to undergo "scheduled maintenance” that is “required.”

Weird innit..

hunk

Funkstain wrote:

Absolute bum.

Trump has already laid down the groundwork. If you listen carefully you can already hear his base chanting':12 more years' !

mistercrayon

Funkstain wrote:

GooberTheHat wrote:

Funkstain wrote:

Thought experiment: if you get Biden (better of two evils!), which then leads to Trump 2.0 but worse cos capable; or you get Trump 2020, then progressive actually able to change things president and senate...

which do you take?

The later obviously, but they aren't the only options available, and neither are they the most likely.

I’d rather you came back to this actually. I’m pretty up to date on what presidents can do or not do and I have my opinion about what tromp will actually do (not a lot) and his long term impact on American politics (an aberration). But genuinely interested in how you guys see things going in US post trump, or post Biden.

If you think the president can barely do anything why do you care if Biden can go in?

Why are you so sure that the reaction to four more years of trump will lead to something good?

JonB

monkey wrote:

JonB wrote:

monkey wrote:

The choice is Biden or Trump. Piss poor options but there you go. No contest. Either fix nothing or destroy everything.

Yeah, fine. But that's a different point. It's not 'the best thing for America at the moment', it's the the only choice against a worse one.

‘Best thing’ was my words that I dashed out not anticipating the reaction.

The exact words aren't crucial. Biden being actually good for the US isn't the same as being the better option in a shit two-way choice. I don't know why you shifted to that the moment someone questioned the premise of the article you mentioned.

Funkstain

mistercrayon wrote:

Funkstain wrote:

GooberTheHat wrote:

Funkstain wrote:

Thought experiment: if you get Biden (better of two evils!), which then leads to Trump 2.0 but worse cos capable; or you get Trump 2020, then progressive actually able to change things president and senate...

which do you take?

The later obviously, but they aren't the only options available, and neither are they the most likely.

I’d rather you came back to this actually. I’m pretty up to date on what presidents can do or not do and I have my opinion about what tromp will actually do (not a lot) and his long term impact on American politics (an aberration). But genuinely interested in how you guys see things going in US post trump, or post Biden.

If you think the president can barely do anything why do you care if Biden can go in?

Why are you so sure that the reaction to four more years of trump will lead to something good?

I don’t think the president can barely do anything. I think opposition to trump will stop him achieving much. He’s done lots of damage in the short term (Paris, Iran, demagoguery) but it won’t survive long. Biden won’t change anything at all, he’ll not move the needle on the things that are actually important to achieve lasting meaningful change. He’ll sign back up to Paris, bomb Iran, be less of a demagogue.

I am not sure the reaction to trump will lead to something good, I just expect the reaction to Biden will be bullshit because he is bullshit.

My thought experiment was shit you’re right. I should’ve said “what will have a better long term outcome for US / the world: Biden or trump?

mistercrayon

I think Biden is a better reflection of the America that has a chance of being good while Trump is the reflection of America that has better chance of being really regressive.

The thing for me (currently) is not to look at Biden or trump really as being forces for change but more as a barometer for where America is.

It’s telling that Biden is even remotely playing green agenda, increasing minimum wages, increasing taxes and so on. These are victories imo from people who want a fairer America. Are they the victory lap? Hell no. But America is a weird place. Where democrats could be as left as our conservatives because they fight with UKIP regularly or democrats could be extremely progressive (AOC type). But Biden needs to wear the badge that fits both and promote agenda that will be palatable to both.

RedDave2

What has me more worried about Trump than a Biden or even a Bush, is not his policies as such but his personal character and how he has brought out the absolute worse in the political class not just in the states but world wide. His fake news mantra has been hugely destabilising for proper news reporting and while he isn't the only factor (media ownership and the rise of unchecked social media as news is just as important) the fact that his shtick isn't coming as a celebrity but as a President makes it more damaging. The way he carries himself as a politician has embolden others to act as he does. Lie as much as you like and don't even blink when you are called on it.

His deliberate approach to polarizing isn't helpful at all, especially to a nation which at times wants to chant USA as one, but splits back to being individual states depending on the issue. Obamas election was a catalyst for a rise in white power BS in the states, but Trump has offered a sheen of legitimacy.

More than ever, the Trump era has seen people take real sides behind a person and not a political outlook. Trump doesn't have voters. He has fans and followers. Thats not how the political system in any country should work and we can see Boris Johnson ride a similar path to power. Its worth noting that many BJ fans also praise Trump.

As for how the world would be post Trump vs post Biden, I think the world will be a worse place as Trump will have 4 more years to pursue a heavy isolationist policy which isn't good for the world. With no election to worry about, we could see even worse actions from him and regardless of a Biden or Trump win an Ivanka or Don Jr. Trump 2024 campaign is a near cert. If either of those comes in after their Father, they will have had 4 years to nestle in. That means a single family (and not a particular good family in terms of social impact) will be in charge of the biggest economy and military for 12 to 16 years. And I reckon Don Jr is worse than his father.

I do feel he has been a lightning rod for the some of the worst of politics. For that reason alone, I'd like him gone.

LarryDavid

Trump's merely a symptom, things were awful before he came along no doubt they'll continue to be awful when/if he goes. He just dialed it up a notch. That's not to say he's not a scumbag or that anyone should want him to continue being President, but the Republican Party is rammed full of scumbags with appalling views, and many of them are not as dysfunctional, vapid or lacking in intelligence, attention span or strategic ability as Trump.

I don't even know what I'm trying to say ... he's terrible obviously, and getting rid of him would be great. For a moment, until Biden stealthily drops every faintly progressive policy he committed to and goes back to the same old same old. (He may not, if you're being optimistic)

I don't see the rifts and divisions in America going away with Trump, they're embedded and driven on by the algorithms - people on both sides descending further down their own social media rabbit holes, with little common ground and often totally contradictory interpretations of the very same news event, one side viewing the other as literal Nazi's whilst the other views them as deep state child-trafficking satanists.

Buy my book: Black Sky Thinking - The Total Pessimist's Guide To A World Gone to Shit (Good News Books, £7.99)

GooberTheHat

Funkstain wrote:

GooberTheHat wrote:

Funkstain wrote:

Thought experiment: if you get Biden (better of two evils!), which then leads to Trump 2.0 but worse cos capable; or you get Trump 2020, then progressive actually able to change things president and senate...

which do you take?

The later obviously, but they aren't the only options available, and neither are they the most likely.

I’d rather you came back to this actually. I’m pretty up to date on what presidents can do or not do and I have my opinion about what tromp will actually do (not a lot) and his long term impact on American politics (an aberration). But genuinely interested in how you guys see things going in US post trump, or post Biden.

Can the president order the judiciary to reduce the sentence on his convicted co-conspiritors? Can the president order attorney generals that are investigating criminality in government be sacked? Can the president sign executive orders denying LGBT the right to serve in the military? Can the president ignore any legal binding demands from investigators?

hunk

In the US checks and balances have lost their relevance. Allegiance to the GoP and Trump is all that remains. It's all downhill for US democracy from here and all it took was 4 years.

Nina

Please don't say that, I've at least got two more years here.

Can't you all just send some thoughts and prayers this way? That will make this country whole again.

hunk

Sorry Nina, forgot about the badgers in the US!

Thoughts and prayers remind me of mass shootings which is baaad. There's still hope though so don't despair, the dems just have to be calculating and strategic with their campaign. Also, AOC is still a ray of light on the horizon.

If Biden wins going back to the status quo would be a bad idea as essentially you'd be running around in circles repeating the same shitty mistakes and ending up in a similar place. Real reform is needed to break out of the loop and build a better society.

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