We do need MPs to show some backbone here.

Oh.

(I still think it'll get through Parliament.)

"look, we've made a decision to amputate this arm. Just because we now know that the arm is actually OK is irrelevant. The doctors made a decision and we must carry out that decision. To ask the doctors for a second opinion, now they have more information, just wouldn't be in the interests of the patient".

I'd say desperate.
Quite what she is attempting to achieve in these reassurances is beyond me but reports suggest she has achieved nothing.
Not something that won't make a difference but literally nothing has changed.

After careful consideration I've come to the view that remainers need to get round this deal. If I were a MP I'd vote for it.

Honestly, the alternative is, at best, more damaging uncertainty as the art 50 period is extended. In the meantime Europe is witnessing a dangerous swing towards white supremacist views being legitimised.

At worst, hard Brexit will see rioting.

So I'd vote for this deal, no question.

We've left already, in reality. We've shown we are not reliable partners. We would never again have the same influence remaining. It's done. The ex-spook Tory minister whose name I forget convinced me.

I also don't think you realise how much hatred is waiting to be unleashed in case of a "betrayal". May's compromise, and a massive, Marshall plan style plan for the north and other white working class is what it will take to fix this country. It'll take 20 years.

The betrayal chat would at least be softened by a second referendum showing a majority for remain. Hard to argue that leave is democratic at that point, you'd hope.

Well the first referendum was rigged

It might not lead to a remain vote. It definitely won't if you don't have one, and it legitimises May's turd of a deal if that wins, so Parliament then has to pass it. I genuinely see no downside to a confirmation referendum.

We should remain or hand it to Reese Mogg and let him tie his noose so he can hang himself along with the rest of the wretched alt right.

Yeah.

And I don't understand why the anger of Brexitwats is supposed to be feared more than the anger of Remainers.

There's a lot of fury on both sides.

Nobody should support this deal. It's literally the worst of both worlds. Neither fully in with all the benefits and commitments, not fully out with actual autonomy and control. It's fucking mental.

The only thing this deal has going for it is that it exists, and the idea of walking off the cliff without any solution to the huge gap that a true no deal would bring is worse. If that's the best argument for it - guys, vote for this or I'll really have fucked this country for generations and I can't be bothered to stop it from happening via all the myriad legal routes open to us to prevent that - then it deserves to be shat on.

Some Tory tosspots will vote for it, but I hope our elected representatives don't kill this country's future just for fear of a few right wing headlines.

I don’t think the deal is all that bad tbh. What comes after could be. It locks us into the EU which is what we (Remain people) want. To get out of it we need to offer the EU a better deal for them than to have us in a permanent transition or the backstop. And that doesn’t seem likely.

The problem being that, if the deal goes through, we’re still going on about Brexit, you’ve still got the Tories negotiating away the more progressive arrangements we’re part of, there’s still nothing getting done about schools, hospitals etc.

The betrayal narrative is set now whatever happens. Remain = betrayal. Shit deal = betrayal. Whatever happens the ERG, UKIPs and EDLs will use it to shit stir. But Remain is the riskiest because it’s a single focal crunch point instead of a slow and steady slide into decline.

The deal is a disaster for services. A total fucking disaster.

WorKid wrote:

The deal is a disaster for services. A total fucking disaster.

I agree but it’s so ridiculous that I can’t see that standing. There’s a two year transition period to agree a full fat trading deal. Which will be missed. It’ll be 5-10 years down the line before any of that comes in. Then who knows where we’ll be.

monkey wrote:

WorKid wrote:

The deal is a disaster for services. A total fucking disaster.

I agree but it’s so ridiculous that I can’t see that standing. There’s a two year transition period to agree a full fat trading deal. Which will be missed. It’ll be 5-10 years down the line before any of that comes in. Then who knows where we’ll be.

If the Tories see sense (See May's first speech as PM), or Corbo gets in, that 5-10 year period will see a vastly fairer distribution of wealth and opportunity in the deprived areas. Sure, as a whole we'll be less rich. But it gives us a chance.

We can't go on fuckinh over the white working class. It's fucking suicidal.

I've come to the view that Brexit is a symptom of something much more serious in the country

Well you’d hope that alongside remaining there would be a big push to address the feelings that drove the leave vote in the first place, investment in public services, money for community projects, stuff like that.

If we take a shit deal because it’s the only thing on offer and it turns out to be shit, there’s going to be very little governmental bandwidth left over to deal with these issues, and the far-right will be more than ready to exploit the issues that are created by a shit for their own ends too.