Upgradable Consoles - The Bear and Badger

Diluted Dante

djchump wrote:

AJ wrote:

Right, so 8bit is 256 shades per channel, 10bit is 1024. That's four times the range (yeah, should have realised that without working it out). Sounds like a fair improvement to me.

And that's per channel, so when it's RGB it's 16,777,216 colours for 8bpc vs 1,073,741,824 colours for 10bpc. Not that you'll be able to distinguish all that unless you're a tetrachromat or mantis shrimp. IMHO the extra range is mostly handy for getting rid of banding in the low blacks and blues in night scenes etc.

One of my lectures could tell you the hex code of any colour we threw at him, so he'd probably be all over this.

IanHamlett

You absolutely can see the difference in 10bit colour. Not all the time, but if you've ever seen distinct bands of colour in the sky or a plain white wall, the palette was not up to the job.

Escape

isanbard wrote:

The only issue I see with the Scorpio and Pro going out of sync a bit is that by the time the Scorpio launches there's a chance that in about a year or so there'll be a PS super Pro or PS5 launching/deep in the rumour mill.

As I keep saying, I can see a lot of people zig-zagging, leapfrogging the same-console upgrade for the best-in-class complementary machine. So for me - with a PS4 - that'd be a Scorpio. And then rather than Scorpio+, a PS5...

Compared to such a path as PS1 > N64 > Dreamcast > Xbox (power talk), I think that's too much acceleration for the market. But then maybe I'm overlooking cash-ready gamers' hunger. It's a spoke in the dev-cycle wheel, no doubt.

RamSteelwood

I'm pretty sure i read that 'Ultra HD' is the badge given to TVs that match the 'agreed' standards...so if you look at a '4K HDR' tv that doesn't have that badge then it's not doing the agreed spec (so equivalent to the 'HD Ready' type thing from the old HD wars).
However I'm also sure i read that Ultra HD isn't a single fixed standard, but more about a minimum range in brightness/contrast etc...so you'll be able to get 'ultra hd' tvs that have differing specs still - some will do blacker black and other whiter whites etc...to keep the racists happy.

AJ

Trust sounds to me like the whole thing's a mess still. Good thing I'm not looking to upgrade my screen for ages, really.

djchump

@Ram, As well as the UHD tag there's the "Ultra HD Premium" badge/logo/certification as well now:
http://www.trustedreviews.com/opinions/ultra-hd-premium
http://www.whathifi.com/advice/ultra-hd-premium-what-are-specs-which-tvs-support-it

So the punters are faced with 4K (which isn't actually the original cinema format 4K 4096x2160, it's a cut down 3840x2160 for 16:9 aspect ratio), UHD, HDR, UHD Premium and I'm not sure if the UHD Premium top range tag even specifies if it has HDMI 1.4 (support 4K 10bit HDR@30fps) or HDMI 2.0 (support 4K 12bit HDR@60fps), so if you want to fully fully future proof there's still lots to consider.

mistercrayon

All standards are about minimum levels. If you have a building that meets building regs you aren't prevented from making it more insulated so you can boast about efficiency.

Raiziel

Urgh, after reading all this I'm not sure I want to upgrade next year now. Sounds like things need at least another couple of years to settle down.

mistercrayon

From what I've read the requirements have settled down but the quality of the tech is not good enough for game re: input lag.

I'd be fucked off if I went in day 1 for a 4K to though.

AJ

Going day one for pretty much any tech is madness and deserves to be punished.

Yossarian

No, we should thank the early adopters for finding the faults before we have to deal with them.

b0r1s

Someone has to, otherwise it'll never take off. I would say 4k is far from day one. HDR is the factor and it's a bit shit they launched none-HDR sets knowing full well they would be releasing HDR versions in less than 2 years. But that seems to be the TV industry for you.

mistercrayon

The HDR thing feels like a counter to the fact that 4K on its own doesn't feel like a worthwhile upgrade. It relies on a bigger room AND there is barely any true 4K stuff.

AJ

Bigger room? My TV's already far enough away that I'm not sure I'll be able to tell HD from 4K. Any further and I may as well go back to SD.

cockbeard

Diluted Dante wrote:

djchump wrote:

AJ wrote:

Right, so 8bit is 256 shades per channel, 10bit is 1024. That's four times the range (yeah, should have realised that without working it out). Sounds like a fair improvement to me.

And that's per channel, so when it's RGB it's 16,777,216 colours for 8bpc vs 1,073,741,824 colours for 10bpc. Not that you'll be able to distinguish all that unless you're a tetrachromat or mantis shrimp. IMHO the extra range is mostly handy for getting rid of banding in the low blacks and blues in night scenes etc.

One of my lectures could tell you the hex code of any colour we threw at him, so he'd probably be all over this.

When I was at Advanced/Serco I always remember one data manager who would phone up every now and again with queries

Security Question : Favourite colour

Answer : 0000FF

TWAT

cockbeard

This is the thing that was doing my head in about it

HDR having no definition, this UHDPremium thing, which because it was created by TV manufacturers, seems like a bit of a cabal. I bet there is a large fee to certify a product if you aren't one of the bigger firms, plus the use of a measurement that few people had ever heard of, especially when existing measurements exist

IMO they have reached the useful upper limit of pixel density, and are just needing new phrases to encourage people to buy new tellies, I mean the curved screen thing didn't really work, and like I say, my plasma is over ten years old and has contrast ratio of something like 100k:1, so assuming decent soft/firmware then there seems to be nothing left to upsell people on

RamSteelwood

@dj cheers. I think I must have been thinking about the UHD Premium badge actually... so yeah I'm confused despite thinking I might have had some idea. will stick with my 1080p plasma for now!

b0r1s

Article on the current standards: http://www.expertreviews.co.uk/tvs-entertainment/1404660/dolby-vision-vs-hdr-10-whats-the-difference

Basically if you buy into the better Dolby Vision standard, you won't lose out as it's also HDR compatible. So unlike HD-DVD you won't lose out, at present anyway, by backing the better standard. You could lose out if you back the lesser HDR10 standard, but I get the feeling it will be a bit like DD5.1 vs DTS, both could run alongside each other.

bad_hair_day

I think both the XBone S and PS4 Pro use HDR10.

Raiziel

I'ma buy the same telly as Boris.

regmcfly

I want a good tinfoil hat article on collusion between Sony and Ms on alternate year releases for console

djchump

Aye. I'd put good money on, in the run up to Scorpio release (maybe a month or 2 before), Sony announce PS4 Pro Ultimate Edition that has 1/4 to 1/3 larger numbers than Scorpio and is to be released within the next year - setting the scene for alternate year upgrade one-upmanship.

b0r1s

Raiziel wrote:

I'ma buy the same telly as Boris.

I'll let you know in July

b0r1s

regmcfly wrote:

I want a good tinfoil hat article on collusion between Sony and Ms on alternate year releases for console

Could be one but guessing it's not working out for MS at mo.

Yossarian

In 12 months or so it could be working out very well for them indeed.

Raiziel

I'm not sure the Scorpio will change their fortunes much. I'm very keen on it, but it sounds like it's going to be a premium product, and that'll come with a premium price tag. I'm really okay with that, but I'm pretty sure I'm in the minority.

AJ

Nah, it'll be standard new console pricing. Of course, for this kind of thing, it won't sell as well as they got hope and they'll drop the price quickly. Then the next revision will be a little less.

Escape

cockbeard wrote:

needing new phrases to encourage people to buy new tellies

FED/SED (Fred) should be the answer; bring 'em back! Almost as flat as LCDs, but with a host of label-ready advantages: deepest blacks; vastly improved viewing angles; teensy amounts of input lag; full motion resolution without blurring; lower power consumption; no scaling problems or introduced lag ('cause no native res). Launch during a World Cup or Euro and talk up the elimination of blur.

LCDs and OLEDs are just papering the cracks when we've tech for the best TVs in history. A CRT has an electron gun, whereas a FED has a grid of nanoscopic ones; a flattened CRT. SEDs are cheaper to produce (they're a less complex variant and FEDs demand high build quality), but too many people are happy with LCDs.

djchump

AJ wrote:

Nah, it'll be standard new console pricing. Of course, for this kind of thing, it won't sell as well as they got hope and they'll drop the price quickly. Then the next revision will be a little less.

I doubt they'll be able to match the PS4Pro at £350, maybe they can hit the xbone launch £430 price but I wouldn't be surprised if it's higher. They'll probably do a super pro gamer bundle with an Elite controller and 2 or 3TB for top dollar as well.

RedDave2

Would that not be a position that Sony could take? They have the user base advantage. If xbone is still lagging behind when Scorpio comes out, I'd imagine they may well need to do a great price deal to stay in the game.

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