They might also be useful in that their current approach would seem to appeal most to Tory remainers. Some Labour remainers as well, but more the Tories, I think. If they can attract enough of them, it might do some good.

Turn in the scary stories Jon, Halloween has been and gone.

I haven't even heard a policy out of them yet other than revoke art.50.

It is all about how they can also wear big kid pants and increasingly how Swinson can be PM.

Look at the headline. On the front page it's "Corbyn says...", Here it's "insists." Quote tags.

"Corbyn: Labour's Brexit stance isn't complicated" is a headline it could have used. It has used that sort of headline. You could even add the word really.

Not "Swinson insists she really can be the next PM"

He did brilliantly today. I challenge all to go find fault with what he is saying. If you really listen, remain or leave, the complaint is the same and the fix is the same, a Govt and policies that work for the people.

I saw the Corbo press conference and it was decent. He's helped by having his army of little Jeremies in the audience to laugh and cheer at all his best lines. I don't think the Johnson v Corbyn debates are going to be quite as good for the Tories as they seem to think though.

Taking a step back and looking at Labour strategy, I think their message is a little too complicated for the electorate to easily digest, if you consider that electorate to be formed of roughly 3 camps: hardcore remain, spectrum of people in the middle, and hardcore leave.

For hardcore remain, there's something there: whatever new WAB is negotiated is irrelevant, they'll get the chance to vote remain again in the referendum. OK, so keep referendum in manifesto, good.

For bunch of people in the middle, they're not sure what they're going to get: am I voting for a remain party or a leave party? Or neither? And yet more negotiation, for what? Do I care enough about the details here?

For the hardcore leave (and that sliver of those who are traditional Labour voters), a renegotiated WAB based on customs union and/or single market doesn't appeal much, and a referendum less so: current Labour policy for these guys is a non-starter.

My point, I suppose, is that I'm not sure why they're bothering with the "we'll get a better deal from the EU in 6 months" bit. Just promise a referendum based on "a" deal vs remain, and then say the PLP won't be whipped either way so it's up to them to answer awkward Qs about their intention in the referendum. It's a clearer message, it removes several attack vectors from Tories and hostile media, and I'm really not sure that this "new deal" appeals to enough leavers, of any shade, other than perhaps a tiny sliver of very soft leavers - and they aren't worth this pain.

It seems pretty important to send the message that Boris's deal is shit though. Saying they'll keep it isn't a good plan.

Funkstain wrote:

I mean, the lines write themselves: if the Tories attack them for wanting a second ref, then just say "but Boris' deal is apparently brilliant, so it should stand up to the public", etc. Just dodge the whole "new deal" thing altogether, it's not necessary nor helpful to their cause imo

I suppose for me - and maybe I’m being incredibly naive here, that’s certainly a possibility - I’m thinking that in that middle camp (and even in the remain / leave camps) there will be people who can swallow or accept the least damaging compromise.

I’ve no idea if that’s doable in this climate. But I’ve said elsewhere in politics threads that I’m at the point now where I want remain, but I’ll happily accept some form of leave deal that tries its best to cover and protect as many people (in the Uk and Europe) as possible.

It’s not “I want it done”. To be honest, this is a big deal, I can wait until we get it right. It’s “I want us to start fixing our problems with each other”.

Fucking scumbags.

Djornson wrote:

All this brexit bollocks aint that important when the planet is fucked, i'm voting for Greta and XR

The Tories will continue to encourage the raping and pillaging of our planet in the interest of a quick buck. Labour would change public policies to at least attempt to mitigate the damage our country and others are doing. This isn’t just about Brexit.

Like a stopped watch...

Armitage_Shankburn wrote:

He did brilliantly today. I challenge all to go find fault with what he is saying. If you really listen, remain or leave, the complaint is the same and the fix is the same, a Govt and policies that work for the people.

I agree.

Maybe it's cometh the hour.

I like his relaxed style (which was referenced Fallout it's the result of how he was trained). A debate with Johnson may actually be interesting to watch as it won't be a case of 2 people trying to out bluster one another.

However I'm afraid the declared "winner" will be more a reflection on the electorate than the participants' performance.  The apparant appetite for Johnson's lies seems to be relentless.

Brexit is a distraction now wrt this GE. In or out ,what will matter more is who is in charge.

Of course they could just front up and be honest:

"I personally will campaign for Remain as I personally believe that is best for the country, but I, and the Labour Party, cannot ignore the millions of people who voted to Leave, so we will go back to the EU to negotiate a better deal than Johnson's terrible betrayal. Then we can offer the country the best choice possible in a referendum, which will represent the will of both halves of the country; with a deal which protect worker's rights, protects the environment, protects our businesses and our citizens"