Evil satan tory bastards
  • Are rats immune to the accumulation of social capital
  • MMM.. yes, without significant social pushing they appear to work on a very simple basis of comfort and cooperation

    maybe its why theyre some of the most efficient surviving species despite having such short lifespans (yet being supernaturally resiliant during them)

    I think rats are essentially decent guys
  • Altruism is required by most species to survive. That's probably its definition. I'm pretty sure this has been recorded at some point.
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    LazyGunn wrote:
    Mod74 wrote:
    it definitely definitely would work if people would only do it right.
    yeah,its unworkable, cause people are selfish pigs

    People aren't always selfish, as we've established. Most people will give when they can.

    But being nice to each other and share-and-sharealike are fantastic ideas and great ideals people should aspire to, but they're ideas more akin to religion than the building blocks for a society.
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    Altruism is required by most species to survive. That's probably its definition. I'm pretty sure this has been recorded at some point.

    That's between a nuclear family or tight community. Communism it talking about sacrifice for strangers thousands of miles away. People don't work like that.
  • Again, I think it comes down to broad awareness of a range of conditions and how you let that steer attitudes to policy; essentially, wealth and comfort should never be able/allowed to insulate someone from the implications of hardship, and the principal complaint against the Right/Toryhood/uh seems to be that its preoccupation is resisting that.
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    Actually, rather than selfishness, I think it's the complete lack of choice that skewers communism from a human nature perspective.
  • Brooks that's a psychological implication and an important one but some massive point upon which communism cant work, from herein on anyways, how do you even the scales to which these folk no only distribute their wealth but their free time to contributing to the gain of society, rather than simply brokering more money
  • Oh I'm not advocating more than an empire of impassioned guilt. I think you can get a lot done if more people can address and accept weakness and shame.
  • Mod74 wrote:
    Actually, rather than selfishness, I think it's the complete lack of choice that skewers communism from a human nature perspective.

    completely wrong, communism is based around small intelligent communities electing those with ability to the correct channels, the idea is of it to be entirely meritocratic and people be applied to things that most suit them, a community could be described as a school sending intelligent students to a better school (this happened to me)

    again the confusion is that being an ideology that benefits the majority means the majority is herded like sheep (this is a capitalist perspective), you mave masses of choice, and you try to fulfill what you feel most aptitude towards, but it be loose in enough sense that you canfind your own way through it, there's no hanneling, nothing forced, and again it seems when people think what communism is they describe facism which i find bizarre
  • Meritocracy is a bit of a grubby concept now, in that those with merit will tend, consciously or otherwise, towards entrenchment of privileges/dynasticism when they reach the top and have to stop and that's what's bothering they.

    Without schemes to defuse nepotism, clannishness, and ensure a good turnover of ability, wherever it comes from, I have little confidence in Merit as a guiding notion.
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    Um, if you're saying there's loads of choice then I've really really mis-understood the "everyone gets an equal share" aspect of communism.

    And every documentary I've seen about soviet Russia has lied to me.

    I'm also struggling with the idea of a functioning meritocracy when I don't think I've ever heard the word communism without the would corruption following close behind.
  • Maybe a broadening of what constitutes a meritocracy should come to mind, and maybe social progress get some 3D glasses or something.. yeah what i dunno, either way i think an ability to apraise someone on several dimensions has come and if that appraisal were to come from a wider network than an interview wth an invalid that might be grand

    Since at least the 90s its become increasingly apparent we can profile folk (i blame drugs) a lot more confidently and when they are evaluated by a consensus of a decent number then that a little better than the spidersilk thin appraisal currently enjoyed by an incredibly individualistic, disparate society

    It's amazing religion still convinces people they arent going to die alone and hopeless
  • You've been at the okcupid blog, I know it.
  • I dont even know what what that is

    I wasjst saying current society (or the paradigm within) makes people very alone
  • Kow
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    While communism has a level of utopianism about it, I'd say the same is true of the liberal model. The notion that the markets can regulate themselves, the elites will auto check each other and the wealth will trickle down to everybody isn't much less of a fantasy than egalitarian self sufficient communities. It just happens to be the fantasy with live in.
  • I love it how we claim to live in a democracy where we have choice over policy decisions.
    will expand later..
    Sometimes here. Sometimes Lurk. Occasionally writes a bad opinion then deletes it before posting..
  • Rough and ready way to sort the altruism issue:

    Set up a dual carriageway with a sign saying the roads merge, all the cars that shoot down the right trying to get in at the end are channelled into a fiery pit, the rest form a new communist society.
  • That's what you are supposed to do.
  • Well, I actually meant one on my way to work this morning, a temporary merge sign indicating roadworks past a traffic light T-junction; all the cars now going to hell trying to pile in at the end continually causing gridlock every time the lights changed, so no one could join the road. But anyway, you failed the make the cut, sorry.
  • The lines of traffic should merge where the roads merge. It's people cutting in early that makes it inefficient. They get it in Europe.
  • Can't hear you, toasty.
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    I'd start with the Royals. Leave the Monarchy; leave the castles; and leave the Astons, horses and helicopters. But make them earn their incomes off the bat of their vast resources. Never deprivation of familial inheritance for anyone, but a balancing of inherited pathways to higher wages.

    Which won't happen because it's not a governmental problem: it's based on the well-meaning humanity of favouring your own ideals. I'm not questioning your assessment of merito, B, but it's obviously not a blue-blooded business from the top down in every case. There's plenty of room to ponder the whys of big-brained boonies entrenchment.

    Private schooling's an interesting one if you buy into the theory that the common source of pupils (i.e. successful parents) is held in higher employment regard than - in my personal view - the undoubtedly superior curriculum.

    beano wrote:
    They just need more policies beyond 'green policies'.

    Realistic green policies. Let's see how cheery the dance when their iPads conk out on wind power.

    Overpopulation's shat up and over the gunnels of good production practice. Unless we go full-on Keith Pratt, factories are making everything down to the eco-friendly cartons we drink from, and they're only eco when they leave the end-user (less the power demands for recycling). A truly green life is one without modern necessities. Forgive my Captain Obvious.

    Altruism's increasingly precipitous as more cards are added to the pyramid. There was that study I can't be arsed to find about villages and hamlets versus towns and cities. Gist version: a bit of bad in a community sends a wider shock wave than a lot of good. Reverting to cynicism in the face of another bad 'un is odds-on a survival instinct.
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    My god I'm boring sometimes.
  • @LazyGunn @tin_robot - thought you might appreciate this research:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22996558
    Spontaneous giving and calculated greed.

    Rand DG, Greene JD, Nowak MA.

    Program for Evolutionary Dynamics, Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts 02138, USA. [email protected]

    Abstract
    Cooperation is central to human social behaviour. However, choosing to cooperate requires individuals to incur a personal cost to benefit others. Here we explore the cognitive basis of cooperative decision-making in humans using a dual-process framework. We ask whether people are predisposed towards selfishness, behaving cooperatively only through active self-control; or whether they are intuitively cooperative, with reflection and prospective reasoning favouring 'rational' self-interest. To investigate this issue, we perform ten studies using economic games. We find that across a range of experimental designs, subjects who reach their decisions more quickly are more cooperative. Furthermore, forcing subjects to decide quickly increases contributions, whereas instructing them to reflect and forcing them to decide slowly decreases contributions. Finally, an induction that primes subjects to trust their intuitions increases contributions compared with an induction that promotes greater reflection. To explain these results, we propose that cooperation is intuitive because cooperative heuristics are developed in daily life where cooperation is typically advantageous. We then validate predictions generated by this proposed mechanism. Our results provide convergent evidence that intuition supports cooperation in social dilemmas, and that reflection can undermine these cooperative impulses.

    This was also interesting:
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/27/AR2007052701056.html
    Spoiler:

    Also, there are these jumping off points (wikipedia natch):
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism_in_animals
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    Can we put an Altruism Chip in Davo?

    Have to clear the redshirts first. Keep Georgie on hand.
  • Blue-blooded, no. But they don't need to be to exercise the same patterns - there just have to be enough folk with a common interest who feel they have all to lose by opening the gates. Guild-type monopolisation of certain labour markets is one instance.
  • i love/hate threads like this, cos while interesting in bits, just reminds how little i know outside my own little bubble.  still, i won't let that stop me jumping in with some nonsense.

    in summary:
    idealist man says: if we all share and look after each other, things will be great.
    normal man says: ok, you share your stuff with me, but i'd like to keep some of my stuff i really like.

    also, while everyone being assigned the tasks that best suit them and everyone happily working for the greater good is a nice idea, it's usually spouted by those clever enough to be confidant they'll have a nice job...the people that get assigned to working the turnip fields in winter are probably less keen on the arrangement, and next thing you know big sticks are used to to help encourage them.

    anyway, the thread was won by Brooks when he paraphrased King Louie.  Nearly every other quote, name and reference in here was unknown to me! :)
    "Like i said, context is missing."
    http://ssgg.uk
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    JMW wrote:
    Rough and ready way to sort the altruism issue: Set up a dual carriageway with a sign saying the roads merge, all the cars that shoot down the right trying to get in at the end are channelled into a fiery pit, the rest form a new communist society.

    Isn't it all the people that take up the left lane as soon as they see the sign with the express intention of no fucking way are they letting anyone in from the right that need to go in the pit? They're the ones not being nice to others.

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