Andy wrote:

Let’s put this back the other way, BHD.

They’ve been reading these signals for days (weeks?) beforehand. Why do you think the first time they bother to investigate it is when there are a couple of aircraft kicking about after a training exercise? Why wasn’t it the case that, as multiple craft suddenly appear off the coast of the USA, having apparently descended from space, US aircraft were immediately sent to check it out?

“We’re really worried about these 5-10 craft that keep arriving. What have we done about it? Um...”

Andy, it's a question I asked myself why not investigate unknowns? Apparently the answer is anomalies happen frequently/ it's not a restricted area / only after recalibration of the radar systems the unknowns were now close to the exercise area and brought to the attention of the Captain who authorised the break in the training flight to intercept the object.

bad_hair_day wrote:

He can't see anything at the merge plot. Looks below and see's white water about the size of a 737, tells the wingman to remain at 18k and circles down then they spot the white craft.

Nope. Go back and watch the Joe Rogan interview, 9 minutes in.

Andy wrote:

bad_hair_day wrote:

He can't see anything at the merge plot. Looks below and see's white water about the size of a 737, tells the wingman to remain at 18k and circles down then they spot the white craft.

Nope. Go back and watch the Joe Rogan interview, 9 minutes in.

My mistake. Fravor circles down after they all spot the object because of the wash. 20k feet does seem far away to me too, I'd hope fighter pilots would have good eyes though. Perhaps Elm would have a take on the authenticity of this viewing distance claim?



Edited.

Elm will tell you they're talking nonsense (but he would wouldn't he).

Official Secrets Act

BHD, there’s a difference between whether or not you can see if a thing is or isn’t there, and describing a thing that you’ve never seen before in any detail.

It could be experimental craft. That is still the most likely explanation. The global economy is pretty much based on oil. Any new propulsion method could destablise that.

It could also be aliens buzzing us and larking about much as we do on safari. They could be checking out our tech levels in a benign fashion. If they are aliens either they are friendly or we are fucked. There isn't much we can do about it either way. The government knows about it and knows there ain't much they can do about it either - but can't admit that. Shrugs.  It would be amusing to see how the world elite would respond to that - like a tribal chief looking down the barrel of a musket being bought off with whiskey and baubles.

The only wrinkle in the experimental craft explanation is the idea of keeping such a thing a secret. The atom bomb project in the 40s leaked like a sieve for example. Mainly because a lot of people in the scientific community made the same discoveries around the same time. It was also during the time when communism was popular in the post revolution and global recession era which created a lot of intelligence agents. One would imagine any such propulsion discovery being made the same way.

Other explanation is sometimes weird shit happens that is natural but we don't have the technology or experience to explain it.

BHD, do I need to go back to covering why I don’t find him a particularly credible witness?

Andy, you could but what about the corroboration with other pilots and weapons system officers in the below report and who captured the video?

Remember a lot of detail from the afternoon of 9/11.

I'll say one thing though.

While I do find Fravor's account interesting, his (and the other crew members) experience appears to be very isolated, and he only has a couple of disputable vids for 'material' evidence.

It's not fair to say that obstinacy or a lack of understanding is the primary reason for the scepticism you're encountering.

What we have here, is something like the classic 'I fell down the stairs' explanation for a black eye...

Perhaps you did... But you know, and I know what we're both thinking.

Given the state of previous UFO reports I've seen, misunderstanding of distance very frequently results in incorrect guesses for the size and speed of the object. The classic being whenever a wedding or party releases a shitload of chinese lanterns, there's a swathe of UFO reports from the region where people have seen a "fleet of huge spaceships moving in unified formation at high speeds and changing direction much faster than a jet could possibly handle", when really it's some small things close by being blown by the wind.

Insert Father Ted "Small, Far Away" meme here.

LivDiv wrote:

What are the physics of such an object moving at such a speed?
If reports are to be believed we know it has a physical effect on the water as the describe white water similar to a helicopter hovering.

It then goes under water and shoots off at some insane speed. That would surely vaporize the water causing an insane explosion, in air it would cause a sonic boom.

If they are creating their own gravitational field, Newtonian physics don't apply, er apparently.

The crews flew back, always a debrief after a flight, spoke with each other and filed reports. I'd have thought that was thorough enough to explain their recollection of events. We are talking 40 foot hypersonic Tic Tacs here.

bad_hair_day wrote:

The crews flew back, always a debrief after a flight, spoke with each other and filed reports. I'd have thought that was thorough enough to explain their recollection of events.

Speaking with each other is one of the things that leads to false memories. People hear someone else describing something and if it correlates with something they recall, their brain slots it in place, providing details to their memories that they don’t actually recall, they just think they do.

You think I wasn’t debriefed after that incident? You think my statement wasn’t taken?

And that’s where relying on statements to provide detail also creates an issue. Fravour is undoubtedly relying on his reports to provide detail. His report will have inaccuracies. Now, his brain is creating a memory which is a cocktail of things he remembers, details his brain filled in, details provided by others, and details from a statement. Some of it is him remembering something he remembered while giving a statement, a copy of a copy.

I’m not saying it’s all conjured out of thin air, but a man trying to tell you he remembers an incident in the detail he’s describing in the Joe Rogan interview is lying to himself, or everyone else.