I Wanna Get It On With Jahbulon : The Shmups/STG Thread - The Bear and Badger

cockbeard

Dubs wrote:

Also also, there's another mode called Kizuna. The creates a save state whenever you die in other modes, so you can then go to the Kizuna mode and practice that section in isolation. It seems to start 5-10 seconds before your death, so right now I can go and practice those patterns I died on on the final boss as many times as I want, without having to do the whole boss. edit: one other little detail I very much appreciated is that you can set a button as restart and that you have to hold it for a second or two so you can't hit it by accident.

Very cool feature, especially in this genre where progress can hit brick wall or on replays where score/time/rank attack is the aim of the game

nick_md

Only shooter I've used a stick for was Deathsmiles due to Goodge St. arcade having a cab. I really liked the way you controlled the satellite on stick too, hold fire then move the stick to control both char + satellite in a kind of see-saw way. On pad you could control both independently, seemed cheating to me

I tried learning Ikaruga on stick way after I'd played it on pad and muscle memory said 'no fucking way'. All those polarity changes and missile releases could not be un-learned.

SpaceGazelle

Bit late to the party but Crimson Clover World ignition is ace, especially on a twisty vertical PC monitor.

davyK

nick_md wrote:

Only shooter I've used a stick for was Deathsmiles due to Goodge St. arcade having a cab. I really liked the way you controlled the satellite on stick too, hold fire then move the stick to control both char + satellite in a kind of see-saw way. On pad you could control both independently, seemed cheating to me I tried learning Ikaruga on stick way after I'd played it on pad and muscle memory said 'no fucking way'. All those polarity changes and missile releases could not be un-learned.

Yeah - I think the first way you play a game is what you stick with. I tried Futari with a stick after months using the 360 pad and didn't see the point. You need a pretty good stick for trustworthy taps anyhow. I think the stick is used by a lot of the top JP players because of the arcade origins.

davyK

Rigged up my rotatable monitor to my PC (at last!). Going to spend some time on Ketsui on MAME.

davyK

Grinding level 2 of Ketsui this evening using save states. Splendid game.

davyK

Some more Ketsui. Defintely has that Cave hook that just digs into you.

Purchased ZeroRanger today on Steam. It's a bit good this. Loving the look of it too.

Tempy

Oh I’m glad someone else took the plunge. I had to tap out eventually because it became too tough for me to finish it as I am poor at shmups.

davyK

It certainly doesn't suffer any fools. I'm playing it with the screen rotated which opens things up a bit. You need good basic dodging skills right from the off to get anywhere with it.

Got to level 3 and the weapon selection is opening up - definite Radiant Silvergun influence showing.

clippa

nick_md wrote:

I tried learning Ikaruga on stick way after I'd played it on pad and muscle memory said 'no fucking way'. All those polarity changes and missile releases could not be un-learned.

I know that the 360 and pc versions have analogue control (very unusual for a shmup), but I don't know if that goes back as far as the dreamcast and gamecube versions of the game.
It could just be that.
With that particular game, you're at a disadvantage not using the analogue control scheme if that's what you're used to.

It took me a good few months of practice before I was even competent with an arcade stick (I kept hitting diagonals by accident over and over again), and a good few months more before I was playing better than I had been with an analogue stick, but I reckon it was worth the effort. At the time I didn't have a lot else to do!

I'd say that the right tools for the job are d-pad, keyboard or arcade stick, if you're playing with an analogue stick, no matter how proficient you are, you're handicapping yourself.
Of course, the guy talking about muscle memory is totally correct. When people ask "Which is the best gaming mouse", the right answer is always "the one you've been using for the last 5 years, the one you're used to", that 50000hz polling rate 5 grand mouse with the red lights isn't going to give you an advantage.
We all play games for fun, and if you think a few months of playing badly, trying to master a new control scheme isn't going to be fun for you, then you're right, it isn't.

Most gamers enjoy learning new skills, and they're very good at it, but it does take a while and quite some effort to learn a new input method, particularly if you're getting on a bit and you're used to "winning".
I'd always played first person shooters on pc, for example, but my friends all played on console and it took me a good long, humiliating month playing on a pad before I was kicking their arses.

I'm glad I put the effort in and I enjoyed it, most bullet hell shmups in particular rely on very small, precise movement, "microtapping" that just can't be done on an analogue stick.

I've seen players that are amazing on keyboard, Jaimers is god-tier and uses a saturn d-pad, but I've never seen anyone do as well with an analogue stick.

The analogue stick is a good all rounder, but shouldn't be your weapon of choice for everything.
We all play games to have fun though, I'd only suggest learning a new control scheme if you get to the point where you feel like your skill is growing and your current choice is holding you back.

I'm clippa, by the way, I heard on another forum, from a migrant, that you lot don't take yourselves too seriously, so I've come to take his place

Unlikely

Welcome, Rev.

clippa

I don't understand that reference, but I'm suddenly extremely self conscious about my first post being so dry and long winded, sorry.
I'm fun, I promise!

afgavinstan

Welcome, Clippa!

clippa

Thanks, man!

Unlikely

Welcome, Gav.

afgavinstan

Welcome, man.

davyK

Welcome @Clippa.

I rarely use an analogue stick with shmups. I usually use a dpad but they aren't the greatest on some pads. The DC pad isn't great but the official stick is excellent so I use that.

The Saturn pad is hard to beat and I've tried using a Saturn stick and I've yet to make up my mind which I prefer.

On 360 I have a hori fighting stick which is nice, but the 360 pad is actually far better than I anticipated.

re keyboard - I know that there's a MAME WR holder on DDP that uses a keyboard (he's a French guy on shmups.com forums)

I think it all comes down to what you first start playing a game with. I much prefer Gigawing with a stick for example. But I played 360 Futari with a pad and find it hard to adjust to a stick playing that.

nick_md

The difficulty on Ikaruga stick for me wasn't the movement method, it was trying to adapt to releasing missiles by tapping fire+change together (on 360 I used a shoulder button). My brain was just far too hardwired to do it.

I always like to try and get competent on stick in case I come across cabs in the wild.

Also, Welcome Clippa

davyK

Aye....I have myself programmed to try and go with stick. It just seems right given these are arcade games.

Playing Darius Gaiden this week on Saturn. I've started to use the rapid fire option which some say is a cheat. It's accepted at shmups.com in their high score threads so it's good enough for me.
Anyhow - it makes the game far more enjoyable. I reckon I'll get a 1CC over the weekend as I'm getting to the penultimate level picking an easy route.

davyK

Re analogue sticks on 360 - I have noticed that trying to play Pacman CE with the dpad is a poor experience - the game seems to have been coded with using the analogue stick as it works great with that which I hadn't expected.

nick_md

I actually quite enjoy discussions around changing play style, it's something that comes up a lot in iidx, which I know I can bang on about at times, so apologies.

I'm in a FB group for iidx players and without fail there's a post by someone every other day or so asking how they can get used to a new play style. It's somewhat different in that game ofc as there are so many different ways to play the keys (albeit the majority conform to ~5 different base types, with variations and personal flourishes), but it really interests me. I love seeing crazy and unusual play styles. The best players in that game basically have mastered a 'free form' style, where they have no style really, they adapt on the fly to what the notes are throwing down. It's super impressive, to me at least. I've been through several play style changes there myself and I guess am somewhat free form now, although I revert to my tried and tested '1048' style for dense patterns.

I really do wish some other b&b people played that game

cockbeard

clippa wrote:

nick_md wrote:

I tried learning Ikaruga on stick way after I'd played it on pad and muscle memory said 'no fucking way'. All those polarity changes and missile releases could not be un-learned.

I know that the 360 and pc versions have analogue control (very unusual for a shmup)

Please tell me you mean it uses the stick rather than it's actually analogue inuts because that would be game breaking. Personally I prefer stick for most shmups but can handle fightmans on pad, I guess due to more practise. Though being at least five years since I played anything seriously I would likley be relearning on whatever tool is in front of me

Welcome to the forum, hope yo have fun

davyK

nick_md wrote:

I really do wish some other b&b people played that game

It's a niche genre - but prob no more so than modern shmups now.

We've spoken about this before - those games played at even an intermediate level look so intimidating.

davyK

cockbeard wrote:

Please tell me you mean it uses the stick rather than it's actually analogue inuts because that would be game breaking.

Aye. Couldn't imagine tap dodging with an analogue stick..

nick_md

davyK wrote:

nick_md wrote:

I really do wish some other b&b people played that game

It's a niche genre - but prob no more so than modern shmups now. We've spoken about this before - those games played at even an intermediate level look so intimidating.

That's the same as shmups right? Someone watching mushi probably thinks, 'how the hell?' whereas it's nowhere near as hard as it looks, until you get to higher levels.

I think the main barrier to iidx and its ilk is that there's no easy entry, you literally can't play the game at all and fail over and over until it starts to click, then you're away and start improving at a very fast rate. Shmups I guess everyone can start and fly around and shoot things. In iidx I've seen people on their first go just never hitting any notes right, not pressing the right keys at all etc. It's a huge barrier to entry, in fairness.

davyK

Yeah - I get you about shmups but you can at least take out some popcorn enemies until it cranks up . Quite a few have a gentle first level.

The controls required for Beatmania and its ilk seem to be a barrier too - I know you could probably get bye with a keyboard to start with but the impression is you need the button layout and other associated gubbins.

nick_md

Some of the top players in the world play on keyboard tbh, but yeah I get that it's very prohibitive in appearance.

I just watched this, which was a pretty good display of different styles, with some notable omissions. Keyboard styles included towards the end.

davyK

Getting to the last level of Darius Gaiden on Saturn and shmupMAME.

I'm still using the rapid fire activated though - no way I could do this any other way.

Have been playing this with the Saturn pad but after playing in MAME with the stick I think it plays better with it so I'll set the Saturn stick up and see how it plays on that version. On MAME it feels just a mite trickier - the bosses seem to be a tiny bit more durable - but could be the difference in the rapid fire rate on MAME and Saturn. MAME doesn't support save states with this one so have to do complete runs but with rapid fire I think this is one of the easier 1CCs if you pick an easy route. Using A-C-D-H-L-Q-V.

dynamiteReady

Welcome Clippa. :]

Unless Unlikely's right, and you are an alt, how did you find this place?

hylian_elf

I think he mentioned a Badger goes on another forum and mentioned B&B. Probably DS? No one else goes on any other forum, right?

Howdy, Stranger!

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