Super Mario Super Thread - The Bear and Badger

mk64

Moot_Geeza wrote:

In other Mario news, Tilly has started making levels for me in Mario Maker 2 that aren't trollface unpossible. It's in with a shout for best game ever surely.

yes i have this with my daughter who's 8. Its amazing

kestla

My intentions of playing 3D Allstars in chronological order didn't go to plan. Didn't have the patience with the 64 camera at all; how spoilt we are these days! With limited gaming time available I jumped straight to Galaxy as the only one I've never played and boy oh boy, what a joy!

mistercrayon

Mario Galaxy is really really good.

yourfavouriteuncle

I'm not daring to try galaxy until I've at least had a proper bash at Sunshine otherwise i feel it may be too shit. 64 may now be bit too old for my palette.

I can't believe how well Sunshine has aged. It still looks really, really nice.

mk64

whoever loaded up M64, who grabbed his face and yanked it around?

I did

kestla

mk64 wrote:

whoever loaded up M64, who grabbed his face and yanked it around? I did

Have fond memories of that as a kid. Was a wow moment for sure. The graphics seems like witchcraft at the time!

hylian_elf

mk64 wrote:

whoever loaded up M64, who grabbed his face and yanked it around? I did

My daughter loved that. She excitedly told me about it. Oh really? I said.

davyK

Games are still hamstrung by the medium on which they are implemented. Maybe they always will.

Unlike with music, books etc the way they are created and consumes is itself still under development.

Imagine not being able to play a old album or read an old book on your Kindle.

Remasters for me shouldn't be done. They are either experienced as they were or just left alone. For most people going back isn't a good experience. A remaster won't fix that. Just leave it alone and get on with the next game.

Colourised and/or widescreen transfers of old films. Dear oh dear.

Or else go all in on retro.

RamSteelwood

davyK wrote:

Games are still hamstrung by the medium on which they are implemented. Maybe they always will. Unlike with music, books etc the way they are created and consumes is itself still under development. Imagine not being able to play a old album or read an old book on your Kindle. Remasters for me shouldn't be done. They are either experienced as they were or just left alone. For most people going back isn't a good experience. A remaster won't fix that. Just leave it alone and get on with the next game. Colourised and/or widescreen transfers of old films. Dear oh dear. Or else go all in on retro.

Your comparison to old mediums isn't really fair. I can't read my old books on a kindle, cos they're made of paper. i'd have to rebuy the kindle 'remaster'.
same with them old vinyls, i can't listen to them on my ipod or whatever, it needs to be rebought.

afgavinstan

This convo will crop up every time and I was at the point where I'd be inclined to agree with Davy... But then THPS 1&2 happened. And it is absolutely glorious.

So... Case by case for me now!

Moot_Geeza

Worst is when a remaster arrives and it's shoddy for one reason or another. NiGHTS on PS3, for example.

Moot_Geeza

Actually, a full redo that's cack is annoying too, but I'm just looking for an excuse to moan about the Netflix Watership Down really.

davyK

RamSteelwood wrote:

Games are still hamstrung by the medium on which they are implemented. Maybe they always will. Unlike with music, books etc the way they are created and consumes is itself still under development. Imagine not being able to play a old album or read an old book on your Kindle. Remasters for me shouldn't be done. They are either experienced as they were or just left alone. For most people going back isn't a good experience. A remaster won't fix that. Just leave it alone and get on with the next game. Colourised and/or widescreen transfers of old films. Dear oh dear. Or else go all in on retro.

Your comparison to old mediums isn't really fair. I can't read my old books on a kindle, cos they're made of paper. i'd have to rebuy the kindle 'remaster'. same with them old vinyls, i can't listen to them on my ipod or whatever, it needs to be rebought.

I suppose. It's a clumsy analogy. But. It's the same book and the same music. I don't expect it to have improved or changed in the moving to a different medium.

Of course there are remixes of albums on occasions....

If a game's original graphical assets were downgraded to meet the limitations of the console then I can see an argument for rebuilding it and letting those assets shine.

Same perhaps with some music that gets redone from original master tapes.

Old games were experienced at a certain time and place. Different controllers with wires, old TVs with smaller screens with zero lag.

Even setting aside subsequent experiences on modern games, these all have an effect on the experience. So sitting playing a 24 year old game like M64 with a modern controller (which will interact with the software in a different way) on a 50" widescreen TV ? It isn't going to recreate the experience. Add in rose tint and its a recipe for disappointment.

My argument is that the medium impacts upon the experience. So change the medium and it isn't going to be the same. That won't be the case with music or books.

Tempy

I'm largely with Davy, although I disagree that you shouldn't go back. History of a medium is very important. There is a really poor precedent for archival in games because they were thought of as entirely commercial products, their influence and artistry was considered as ancillary to the reason they were made: to make money. If you want to go back and play games as they were these days, you need to emulate, and even then you aren't getting the original experience. That said, I think if you're doing remasters it should be important to try and make available something as close as possible to the original implementation of the game. If you don't you get scenarios like the SotC Remaster, the Silent Hill 2 remake, the FF HD remasters, or Wind Waker HD/Link's Awakening. All of these fundamentally change something aesthetically or mechanically about the original in the desire to make it "better" or to "streamline" the game.

I am all for these being options (I love R-Type Collection and Halo Collection's ability to switch to the original graphics) but I don't like the difficulty the above list of games present for people who want to go back and play the original games. There is charm, artistry and technical brilliance in the way older games achieved things and they are entirely appreciable by newer players, and for people who want to research these things for anything from academic reasons to personal curiosity, and the idea that the original Gamecube Wind Waker is impossible to experience without piracy is a real shame - the HD version doesn't even look "better", it's a totally reworked art style and it's not really representative of what the original game was producing.

There's a good video on why these remasters don't always work, here:

davyK

Sorry if I was misunderstood- yeah - go back - but try and play the games as they were. Either on original hardware (and really with an old TV) or emulate. Emulation is extremely important as a way of preserving gaming history

monkey

Mario 64’s limitations are sufficiently bad to get in the way of appreciating its strengths. There’s a great game still in there but it’s a pain in the arse to get to. Personally I think I’d be happier playing the original for half an hour to see how it’s aged. Then switching to a ground up remake in the Odyssey engine.

b0r1s

I’d be interested to know if I’d hate Mario 64’s controls now as it really was never a problem for me.

monkey

Part of that is personal for me in that me and the little one have been playing Odyssey everyday together for 6 months straight. So it’s especially grating going back.

hylian_elf

b0r1s wrote:

I’d be interested to know if I’d hate Mario 64’s controls now as it really was never a problem for me.

It wasn’t a problem at release because we didn’t have anything better. It is a problem now because we are used to vastly superior controls and cameras.

Roujin

Are the controls of things like Mario 64 a problem? Or is it just people's muscle memory is used to standardised twin stick movement and camera?

Everyone itt was likely a fucking don at Mario 64 back in the day, hitting triple jumps for days, spamming running slide through levels, wall kicks on point, the works.

Full disclosure I haven't gone back to 64 ever, but I feel like it would just be a case of re-engaging with the old controls instead of fighting with them because they aren't "normal"

Frosty

monkey wrote:

. Then switching to a ground up remake in the Odyssey engine.

A Mario 64 remake in the Abes Odyssey engine is a bold choice but I like it.

hylian_elf

I thought he meant Assassin's Creed?

RamSteelwood

Roujin wrote:

Are the controls of things like Mario 64 a problem? Or is it just people's muscle memory is used to standardised twin stick movement and camera? Everyone itt was likely a fucking don at Mario 64 back in the day, hitting triple jumps for days, spamming running slide through levels, wall kicks on point, the works. Full disclosure I haven't gone back to 64 ever, but I feel like it would just be a case of re-engaging with the old controls instead of fighting with them because they aren't "normal"

My initial thought is like this. I've never played any remake or rerelease since the N64 version and so it's still 'perfect' in my head, and I like to think I'd pick up a pad and carry on like I'd never left....

However, I do remember when we played Goldeneye at Sparkystock and everyone was struck by just how different it felt compared to the memory of it. Of course, i thrashed everyone so didn't moan as much as the others

(though to be fair, that's prob down to how little time i've spent playing FPSes since Goldeneye that i had less new muscle memory to fight against)

digi

Just borrowed mario kart deluxe and mario oddysey.
So much fun on both.

(Fiancee only got animal crossing with her switch)

Makes waiting for updates and loading in to destiny a little easier.

davyK

M64's controls were by no means perfect but they were perfectly serviceable. I hate suffixing "for the time" but it's hard to get away from that.

Of course I fell off without meaning it on occasion - but it never felt like the game's fault. And with a recent revisit it felt the same.

I'd wager anyone would find them fine after recalibrating to them. But of course not many would invest the time in "forgetting" modern controls.

Wariospeedwagon

Agree with having to forget modern controls. I've only played a little on All Stars 64 but Mario's suite of moves and how he feels to control is fine but the camera not behaving like it does in a modern game is a big hurdle.

Guess it comes down to a) I'm used to the more precise controlling to be done on the right stick (I had trouble getting Mario to walk along a narrow platform because I couldn't put the camera directly behind him and just press up on the left stick) and b) trying to look at something off in the distance in a particular place. Sort of being at the mercy of where the camera will let me look.

I bought PS2 shinobi last year and could only play it for a couple of minutes because the camera was inverted. Like, I remember it being a great game, but not good enough to bother relearning how to play. I couldn't even walk my ninja around a corner!

Moot_Geeza

I never tried Shinobi. Not sure why, didn't fancy a 3D one perhaps (although in reality it's probably just because it wasn't a Dreamcast game). I should've played Maximo from that gen too.

retroking1981

Maximo was great.

davyK

davyK

I think on balance they kind of like it. The Switch Hori controller seems to be the biggest issue.

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