Brexit: Boris' Big Belgian Bangers - The Bear and Badger

GooberTheHat

Yossarian wrote:

Let’s not forget the illegal data gathering, overspending, and possible Russian money that made the science possible in the first place. And let’s not take Cummings at his word with any of this either seeing as his story about whether or not Vote Leave worked with Cambridge Analytica changed as the stories about them broke.

Yep, I'd take everything he says with a massive pinch of salt.

Armitage_Shankburn

Yeah Cummings is spinning super hard. But I am looking forward to the film, that times hack book was a good read.

LivDiv

More from failing Grayling.
They did the test run for lorries at Dover today.
To test plans for 6000 lorries they got 150, with only 87 turning up. Then ran the test outside of rush hour.

Drivers involved have described it as pointless.

Diluted Dante

But it was successful, so will be rolled out.

djchump

Remember that general tory noise about “we can’t tax rich people or corps more else they’ll leave the country!” ?

https://www.ey.com/uk/en/newsroom/news-releases/19-01-07-ey-financial-services-brexit-tracker-heightened-uncertainty-drives-financial-services-companies-to-move-almost-800-billion-pounds-of-assets-to-europe

Course, once we’ve brexited the tories can tempt them back by slashing tax rates and whatnot and cover the shortfall with some more austerity.

WorKid

I've said about a billion times. Massive own goal, tax receipts will plummet.

Of course nobody will be sat in Sunderland going 'will nobody think of the bankers'?

No matter how low the tax rates are, without access to Europe, Financial Services companies can't operate from the UK, so they need their EU hubs. Those jobs aren't coming back.

hunk

Brexit isn't about the banking sector, they've had their day under the previous government. Other factions of Big Business are rebelling and want their turn in the spotlight. It's about opening up and privatisation of :

-NHS,
-insurance sector (including medical)
-food and drug sector
-public transport
-housing sector
-energy sector
-media and telecom market

Etc, etc

Yes, the financial sector will take a hit but the Brexiteers don't care. Financial opportunities aplenty post Brexit for them. A recession doesn't scare them as it will make it easier buying up assets.

RedDave2

hunk wrote:

Brexit isn't about the banking sector, they've had their day under the previous government. Other factions of Big Business are rebelling and want their turn in the spotlight. It's about opening up and privatisation of : -NHS, -insurance sector (including medical) -food and drug sector -public transport -housing sector -energy sector -media and telecom market Etc, etc Yes, the financial sector will take a hit but the Brexiteers don't care. Financial opportunities aplenty post Brexit for them. A recession doesn't scare them as it will make it easier buying up assets.

OK, that sort of makes sense except if Brexit is as damaging to the UK as some think wouldn't it be counter productive? I get that a lack of regulations would be a bonus but is the UK on its own that big and full of cash? Privatization works in the US because its such a big market and there are lots of high earners who can pay the excessive premiums. A severely damaged UK isn't going to provide that and it loses access to the bigger market so I have to wonder is a damaged and unregulated UK market better than a booming but regulated UK market that also links into the wider EU market?

Sorry if I'm missing something but I fill I'm missing something in seeing the prize being the financial windfall from the UK leaving. I would have thought the destabilizing effect on Europe and the EU overall was more the goal.

poprock

The prize is a very short-term but highly lucrative financial opportunity for the wealthiest % who will profit from investments that predict the volatility/crash/changes as Brexit fucks the country.

That, and the opportunities presented by managing/advising on the changeover from nationalised to privatised services and markets. Most of the current ‘political elite’ will be taking massive paychecks in the near future as private sector consultants. (Also potentially massive ~~bribes~~ incentives from – for example – US healthcare companies wanting access to the UK market.)

RedDave2

poprock wrote:

The prize is a very short-term but highly lucrative financial opportunity for the wealthiest % who will profit from investments that predict the volatility/crash/changes as Brexit fucks the country.

That, and the opportunities presented by managing/advising on the changeover from nationalised to privatised services and markets. Most of the current ‘political elite’ will be taking massive paychecks in the near future as private sector consultants. (Also potentially massive ~~bribes~~ incentives from – for example – US healthcare companies wanting access to the UK market.)

I'm not doubting you but that really is a short term approach. Imagine the mentality of someone who is already probably quite wealthy thinking I can grab a bit more if I fuck over my own country. I'm no patriot but Jesus, that's a repulsive mindset.

Doing it behind the smokescreen of a rule Britania as well.

Diluted Dante

RedDave2 wrote:

poprock wrote:

The prize is a very short-term but highly lucrative financial opportunity for the wealthiest % who will profit from investments that predict the volatility/crash/changes as Brexit fucks the country. That, and the opportunities presented by managing/advising on the changeover from nationalised to privatised services and markets. Most of the current ‘political elite’ will be taking massive paychecks in the near future as private sector consultants. (Also potentially massive ~~bribes~~ incentives from – for example – US healthcare companies wanting access to the UK market.)

I'm not doubting you but that really is a short term approach. Imagine the mentality of someone who is already probably quite wealthy thinking I can grab a bit more if I fuck over my own country. I'm no patriot but Jesus, that's a repulsive mindset. Doing it behind the smokescreen of a rule Britania as well.

Have you not seen Tories before?

I_R

If there is a conspiracy, I doubt many of the Brexiteers are in on it. Some of them genuinely believe in the Singapore idea, some of them are stupid and have believed 40 years of straight banana stories, some of them are racist and some of them are political opportunists and have had a popular cause that never caused much negative feedback until now when it's too late.

poprock

Exactly. I don’t believe many people, even at the top of the Tory tree, planned for this long-term. It’s opportunism, basically.

A few machiavellian types around the world have been pushing global destabilisation for long-term power/profit gains – Bannon, Putin, Murdoch, etc. But within our Government? Nah. There’s a belief in the status quo, a belief in the free market, and a massive gaping void where empathy and understanding should be.

Cameron rolled the dice thinking that promising a referendum on EU membership would unite his party on one side or the other and then be quietly forgotten about. His bluff was called and he had to actually do it. Every move since then has been pure opportunism – “which side can I profit from, either politically or financially?”

The causes behind Leave winning the referendum are well documented. The roots of it go back to Boris fucking Johnson realising that funny stories about straight bananas sell tabloid newspapers. Long-term scapegoating of the EU and immigration by our press has slowly poisoned any chance for logic in any related debate/referendum/etc.

hunk

RedDave2 wrote:

Brexit isn't about the banking sector, they've had their day under the previous government. Other factions of Big Business are rebelling and want their turn in the spotlight. It's about opening up and privatisation of : -NHS, -insurance sector (including medical) -food and drug sector -public transport -housing sector -energy sector -media and telecom market Etc, etc Yes, the financial sector will take a hit but the Brexiteers don't care. Financial opportunities aplenty post Brexit for them. A recession doesn't scare them as it will make it easier buying up assets.

OK, that sort of makes sense except if Brexit is as damaging to the UK as some think wouldn't it be counter productive? I get that a lack of regulations would be a bonus but is the UK on its own that big and full of cash? Privatization works in the US because its such a big market and there are lots of high earners who can pay the excessive premiums. A severely damaged UK isn't going to provide that and it loses access to the bigger market so I have to wonder is a damaged and unregulated UK market better than a booming but regulated UK market that also links into the wider EU market? Sorry if I'm missing something but I fill I'm missing something in seeing the prize being the financial windfall from the UK leaving. I would have thought the destabilizing effect on Europe and the EU overall was more the goal.

This isn't conspiracy theory; this is where global politics and Big Business meet internal affairs.
And how the afformented 2 get what they want when they join forces.

As poprock already observed: Only a few in big business and some politicians will profit, the rest of the country be damned. And yeah, it is an abhorrent mindset but that's capitalism for ye. People want to believe in Brexit for several different reasons; none of them are mutualy exclusive. Nationalism, halting immigration, racism, take back control, laissez faire free market, anti federal government etc, etc. And that's not even taking into account the destabilisation angle by foreign powers.

hunk

Has privatisation worked in the US due to scale of market? Debatable when considering US medical healthcare insurance....

Or housing.
Or Public transport.
Or Pharmaceuticals.
Or food. Chlorine chicken anyone?

WorKid

I_R wrote:

If there is a conspiracy, I doubt many of the Brexiteers are in on it. Some of them genuinely believe in the Singapore idea, some of them are stupid and have believed 40 years of straight banana stories, some of them are racist and some of them are political opportunists and have had a popular cause that never caused much negative feedback until now when it's too late.

I'm on this side of the argument.

I think what actually happened is people genuinely believed we'd get all the benefits of single market access while simultaneously leaving. Because the don't understand the actual rules, or politics, or the European mindset, or the incompetence of this Government, and in many cases all of the above.

Boris - our beloved ex Foreign Secretary don't forget - still doesn't seem to actually understand how cross-border trade in goods and services works, including adherence to common standards. He is mind-bogglingly ignorant.

poprock

hunk wrote:

Has privatisation worked in the US due to scale of market?

It has worked for the shareholders of private corporations. It has not worked for the good of the people.

hunk

Good point.

poprock

WorKid wrote:

Boris - our beloved ex Foreign Secretary don't forget - still doesn't seem to actually understand how cross-border trade in goods and services works, including adherence to common standards. He is mind-bogglingly ignorant.

I disagree. Johnson is anything but ignorant. He’s bloody clever and he’s bloody nasty. That public image of a bumbling idiot is very carefully contrived and maintained. He’s a hyper-ambitious snake of a man and king of the political opportunists. He changes his public opinion on any given issue quicker than Trump does, according to what position he deems most personally advantageous in the moment.

afgavinstan

Preach.

I don't think there's a man on this earth I detest more than he.

hunk

Oh the politicians are absolutely aware of their positions and what they are doing; most importantly, what they are to gain. Without them, Brexit wouldn't be possible. It's mostly the general public who's in the dark on the above. To them it's about taking back control, stopping immigration and giving the finger to the EU.

LivDiv

Yup, he is one to keep an eye on.
Don't ever believe that rubbish about Gove stabbing him in the back. Johnson knew what he was doing by not running for leader at that time.

Notice how quiet he currently is? Now we are at crunch time he is nowhere to be seen.

ChopperByrne

80 days left to sort out this mess.

For everyone's sake, I really hope you do.

monkey

We'll end up extending article 50 so this shit show can carry on for a few more months.

LivDiv

It's not even 80 days mate.
It needs sorting by the end of next week so it can be initiated in 80 days.

I think if the deal is rejected we will be looking at extending Art.50.

These no deal preparations are May turning up the pressure to get her deal through. There is no way a no deal brexit will happen.

davyK

monkey wrote:

We'll end up extending article 50 so this shit show can carry on for a few more months.

That's the only sane option - which by definition - means I don't hold out too much hope for it.

ChopperByrne

There's no point extending, as the EU are not going to change their stance.

The only sensible option is cancelling.

LivDiv

The extension would pretty much have to mean a major shift in approach.
Mainly dropping redlines to allow NI (and the rest of the UK) to align and avoid a hard border. Either that or GE which would mean a different PM and/or government.
The EU would definitely open talks if it was clear the result would be closer alignment.

If the deal is rejected I dont really know how May can go on as PM. She ahs taken full ownership of it and if she cant get a majority on it in Parliament then she isn't really leading the country.

Diluted Dante

LivDiv wrote:

The extension would pretty much have to mean a major shift in approach. Mainly dropping redlines to allow NI (and the rest of the UK) to align and avoid a hard border. Either that or GE which would mean a different PM and/or government. The EU would definitely open talks if it was clear the result would be closer alignment. If the deal is rejected I dont really know how May can go on as PM. She ahs taken full ownership of it and if she cant get a majority on it in Parliament then she isn't really leading the country.

She'll go on because the Tories would still rally round for a confidence vote. Question is whether DUP would.

Ideally she loses this vote, Corbyn calls a no confidence vote which also fails so Labour then fall in line with a 2nd Referendum.

At this point, there will probably be enough Tories who would back that as a way out of this mess for the Government to be defeated on that.

RedDave2

poprock wrote:

hunk wrote:

Has privatisation worked in the US due to scale of market?

It has worked for the shareholders of private corporations. It has not worked for the good of the people.

Sorry yes, that's what I meant. It has been a huge success for them. I'm just not sure that the UK out of europe represents the same appeal, especially if the UK is also losing its finance sector and all the cash that brings.

Howdy, Stranger!

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