Racist - The Bear and Badger

hunk

Nah, people are definitely playing games with the definition of anti-semitism. Mostly on the right which obscures the debate and silences criticism on the left. Politics eh?

Roujin

Yeah I think usually the only people confusing the definition of antisemitism is usually the right using it to smear the left anytime someone ciriticises the actions of the Israeli government, especially if their criticism comes from a pro-palestinian angle cos they can get the juicy terrorist sympathiser wombo combo on.

That said in this case, Wiley is just out here saying things like "Israel doesn't belong to you, it was ours." At which point I almost had to step in and let Wiley know that at no point has the postcode area of E3 in London held any claim over that area of the middle east.

Diluted Dante

Correct, that claim was made by E17

dynamiteReady

Roujin wrote:

...That said in this case, Wiley is just out here saying things like "Israel doesn't belong to you, it was ours." At which point I almost had to step in and let Wiley know that at no point has the postcode area of E3 in London held any claim over that area of the middle east.

Hmm... Didn't think of that.

This could be an expression of new found religious piety.
Staying well away from that.

Bun' him.

Vela

anti-Semitism is taking off lately.

I don't think criticism of Israel is anti-Semitism but if you're going to criticize their activities it's probably a good idea to distinguish your argument in such a way as to make it clear that it has nothing to do with Judaism.

The right has adopted the language and terminology of anti-Semitism such as "cultural Marxism" and that has been slipping through undetected for a while (Chris Uhlmann is a famous ultra religious conservative journo peddling that under the guise of anti atheism/ religious freedom in the Australian context).

And he imported it from the USA.

So essentially if you're going to criticize Israel it wouldn't hurt to put an equal effort into calling out anti-Semitism and defending the human rights of Jewish people

davyK

Vela wrote:

So essentially if you're going to criticize Israel it wouldn't hurt to put an equal effort into calling out anti-Semitism and defending the human rights of Jewish people

It's as if one has to prove one is not anti-semitic - over and over again. You can criticise any country without being accused of racism, except Israel it seems. And Jews don't have a monopoly on victimhood. That's what I am slightly uncomfortable with. Conversations that need to happen keep getting closed down and the Middle East continues to fester.

cockbeard

I always thought that criticism of Israel could be easily distinguished from criticism of Judaism, however a couple of Jewish friends have made it clear to me that the two are actually one and the same

I still think the issue lies with their ears not my mouth, but out of respect for them I no longer discuss those issues in front of them

Kow

The fact that you have to make it clear that criticism of Israel's actions is not intended as criticism of Jewish people is already a victory for Israel.

Vela

All three of you are correct. But the places where I have these discussions aren't in Israel, so the people of whom to be mindful of their well-being are the Jewish people in your area. Being careful to distinguish that criticism is for their benefit, lest facist anti-Semitic people think it's ok to spew their rubbish further.

Vela

I mean I've seen people locally blame covid on Jews.

cockbeard

This could come off badly but hey.. ....

Anti-semitism is over, at least in English speaking nations. Assuming that the reader understands privilege, then the reader must also realise that prejudice is only such when it's punching down, and in the English speaking world the Jewish people are no longer propping up society, they are in the main towards the top of those societies. I despise people using the word "race-card", and I also understand the anger that might be felt by many Jews about the treatment of their great grandparents, however throwing the word "anti-semetic" around with all the historical weight that it carries, the weight of 6 Million lives, does nothing but cheapen those lives that the speaker claims to be demanding respect for

cockbeard

Vela wrote:

I mean I've seen people locally blame covid on Jews.

Oh fuck, ignore my post above then, that's ridiculous

Diluted Dante

Vela wrote:

All three of you are correct. But the places where I have these discussions aren't in Israel, so the people of whom to be mindful of their well-being are the Jewish people in your area. Being careful to distinguish that criticism is for their benefit, lest facist anti-Semitic people think it's ok to spew their rubbish further.

I don't understand how criticism of the policy of the Israeli government requires anything to be distinguished, and to be perfectly honest I think this requirement fuels facist anti-Semitic people.

Vela

Diluted Dante wrote:

Vela wrote:

All three of you are correct. But the places where I have these discussions aren't in Israel, so the people of whom to be mindful of their well-being are the Jewish people in your area. Being careful to distinguish that criticism is for their benefit, lest facist anti-Semitic people think it's ok to spew their rubbish further.

I don't understand how criticism of the policy of the Israeli government requires anything to be distinguished, and to be perfectly honest I think this requirement fuels facist anti-Semitic people.

I say it because I don't want my criticism of Israel to be co-opted by anti-Semites where I live. Australia has a pretty racist history and it doesn't take much in the way of a misspoken comment to be construed as a licence for others to go in hard on their least favourite demographics.

In honest discussion I'd say Israel has a lot in common with Australia. The modern society is a product of dispossession by colonialism by the British Empire. For me to criticize Israel is thus to be mindful of my own context as the beneficiary of occupation.

hunk

Aye, anti-Semitism is definitely still a thing. Especially as they are usually a minority with financial clout at the top. This causes a power imbalance which makes them extremely vulnerable to scapegoating and racism.

What happened in ww2 is horrible but it shouldn't mean Israel gets a free pass on pulling off awful shit. People should hold each other to account otherwise what's the fucking point?

equinox_code

Got no energy for tiptoeing around criticism of Israel. We need to move on from the place where every criticism needs to incorporate mention of all the things we aren’t saying. Enough with the disclaimers and pre-ambles

Facewon

equinox_code wrote:

Got no energy for tiptoeing around criticism of Israel. We need to move on from the place where every criticism needs to incorporate mention of all the things we aren’t saying. Enough with the disclaimers and pre-ambles

It'd be nice, but with the way folks use "classical liberal" principles as memes to say whatever BS they want, it's going to be a while before we don't have to do the dance. And I'll not hold it against folks wanting the clarity. It's possible for antisemitism to be a big problem and for false claims of antisemitism to be a problem.

Facewon

Imgur on phone being shit...

https://twitter.com/elivalley/status/1286403685795405830?s=09

GurtTractor

It would be much better if Israel was far less integrated into the definition of anti-semitism than it is currently - https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism

There's a couple of examples there that are pretty problematic.

Diluted Dante

GurtTractor wrote:

It would be much better if Israel was far less integrated into the definition of anti-semitism than it is currently - https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism There's a couple of examples there that are pretty problematic.

This really should have been pointed out before, perhaps by a political party.

dynamiteReady

GurtTractor wrote:

It would be much better if Israel was far less integrated into the definition of anti-semitism than it is currently - https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism There's a couple of examples there that are pretty problematic.

In my head, antisemitism is a specific form of racism that targets people of Semitic origin.
People of Semitic origin are not necessarily Jewish.

In fact, a large number of Semites are in fact, Muslim.

Or am I wrong about that?

GooberTheHat

Historically no. In modern terms yes.

In modern parlance antisemitism is almost exclusively used in relation to racist/discriminatory attitudes towards people of Jewish faith/culture.

davyK

We all have bias in us. We are a tribal animal. We can host stereotypes in our beliefs - many of them are borne out of truths connected to traditions and cultures anyhow. We have pattern matching brains - it's how we are wired. But as long as that doesn't affect ones belief in the worth of an individual and act accordingly then does that really matter?

I hold a strong belief that disliking aspects of a different culture is mistaken for racism - particularly nowadays, but respect is over-used as a word. Tolerance is what is really required. We should tolerate everything apart from intolerance. Respect implies a liking for something - you don't have to like something in order to tolerate it. Offence is another trump card that is overplayed. If someone is offended, so what? In a world of tolerance and reasonable adjustment which is the best we can get - offence is inevitable.

I know there is a danger of one thing leading to another but we cannot police what people think. Education is key though - and it's important that if an educational programme is successful then it is kept in place. It's too easy to take the foot off the pedal and let things slip.

GooberTheHat

I don't think your definitions of respect and tolerate are accurate there. In my mind respect has no inherent implication of liking.

RedDave2

GooberTheHat wrote:

I don't think your definitions of respect and tolerate are accurate there. In my mind respect has no inherent implication of liking.

Respect usually implies some form of admiration for something though.

Although than there is the phrase 'respect the law' so I dont know if I have that right.

Tolerate may not be as pleasant term but maybe it is the better choice if we are being honest. You may not like 'X' but you have to accept 'X' , no matter how much you dislike 'X'. It's not exactly coming from a nice place, but I don't think you can use respect in the same way.

GooberTheHat

In my mind "respect" indicates that you agree someone has the right to do/say/think something regardless of you opinion of it.

Tolerate makes me think you are willing to put up with it dispite not agreeing with it (but probably only because you don't have means to prevent it).

GooberTheHat

"I respect Muslims' right to practice their religion" VS "I tolerate Muslim religious practices"

One sounds very different to the other to me.

hunk

Aye, I hate it when the Dutch use the term tolerate instead of respect when it comes to civil rights. That mindset really needs to change. It suggests something is boiling underneath the surface.

As for the Israeli-Palestinian issue, it's not just a hot potato here. It's also an internal issue amongst Jewish people themselves.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/29/seth-rogen-israel-palestinians-jewish-actor

RedDave2

GooberTheHat wrote:

"I respect Muslims' right to practice their religion" VS "I tolerate Muslim religious practices" One sounds very different to the other to me.

Dont get me wrong, I agree 100% with the above. But I wonder if Tolerate is the better approach. I'd prefer if we could use respect but if we are dealing with base level racism maybe the best we can hope for is tolerate.

Although, fuck it. Why should we aim so low?

LivDiv

The issue really is that within all religions and probably extended to cultures is that there are elements that can be respected, tolerated and not tolerated.

That is true from on an outsider's perspective but also true from inside as well.

In general it is just better to talk about actions, individuals or small groups who can properly own those actions.

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