Misogyny and other gender issues. - The Bear and Badger

EvilRedEye

Playing devil's advocate, if whatever-that-woman's-name-is-in-that-picture was posing in a less ass-displayingly way, her pose would be nigh-identical to Captain America's, which could look kinda weird. Isn't the problem more that her outfit should be a bit more modest? What's the point in wearing clothes over your ass if your buttocks are going to be so well-defined anyway?

Mod74

Fentonizer wrote:

Little Franklin wrote:

Need a no-tail to tell us what a sexy male fighting game character would be. Where's @handsofblue ?

Women video games characters are sexy, and the men are strong. Because the games cater to men, you either ogle the women or wish you were a strong man.

Was that a joke?

Mod74

Fentonizer wrote:

Also, this: http://twitpic.com/9i8dcn

Um.

And I suppose Thor and Captain America are realistic male models as well.

Downey and at a stretch Renner are the only ones even approaching "normal".

adkm1979

The point is how often women are shown with that pose; arse on display, upper body turned to show the curve of the breast. Â None of the men are posing in such a way as to highlight or even draw attention to their penises.

Mod74

Oooh, what's this

http://twitpic.com/9vevs3

Fentonizer

Mod74 wrote:

Fentonizer wrote:

Little Franklin wrote:

Need a no-tail to tell us what a sexy male fighting game character would be. Where's @handsofblue ?

Women video games characters are sexy, and the men are strong. Because the games cater to men, you either ogle the women or wish you were a strong man.

Was that a joke?

No, just badly worded. The idea is that you're either titilated or taking part in wish fulfilment.

Mod74

adkm1979 wrote:

The point is how often women are shown with that pose; arse on display, upper body turned to show the curve of the breast. Â None of the men are posing in such a way as to highlight or even draw attention to their penises.

Renner and Evans are pretty "chest and cock forward". Thor gets a nice face shot as he's purrty.

Brooks

I'm sort of amused at how Gears tried to absorb female characters into its pudding, which I gotta suggest it didn't do especially badly, insofar as the female avatars are no physically weaker (actually technically at an advantage in multi because of every so slightly smaller hitboxes), similarly armoured, never relegated to expressly subordinate/non-combatant roles, and aren't any less coarse. It coulda been worse. They at least seem to belong in a warzone, unlike, uh, Mai Shirawotsit in KoF.

Then again, there's a broader critique due there re: how sensible is it present essentially 'male' females, which dodges the stickiness of compelling gender characterisation more than it addresses it. Still, Sarah Conner-isms are a step on from Barbie, and they surely better fit what most game studios are capable of shipping at the mo.

Diluted Dante

Mod74 wrote:

Fentonizer wrote:

Also, this: http://twitpic.com/9i8dcn

Um. And I suppose Thor and Captain America are realistic male models as well. Downey and at a stretch Renner are the only ones even approaching "normal".

It's more about the the fact that she's showing her arse off, whilst all the others are facing forwards. I don't think that anyone would claim that Captain America is a realistic male model (that he isn't is his 'thing'), and obviously Thor is a god.

Iron Man just a smart, smarmy rich dude with a robot suit, and Hawkeye is supposed to be just a dude. He may have in impressive physique, but like Batman, it's because all he does is train, unlike Thor who was born that way, and Cap and Hulk who were given their power. I suppose in that respect he's the best role model. Want to be really really god at something and have an impressive physique? Dedicate your life to it and spend every waking moment training.

Kow

The idea of a male female is what many feminists rally against. Shoehorning women into positions of power is essentially perpetuating masculine systems of power and not actually a change of values in favour of women. NB - not necessarily my opinion, just repeating feminist theory, ok?

Brooks

The difficulty is in determining what female 'power' in the full institutional sense actually looks like and to what extent it'd differ from whatever dudes'd do in the kind of (crisis) situations that'd require expression of that power.

I'd like to find out, though. And fiction of all descriptions presents opportunities to think through the implications and logistics. Assuming the writers aren't fucking retarded, could be useful.

Tempy

I thought Anya from Gears was pretty good and not a case of 'Starbucking' a female character. There was never any implication of tomboyishness, she simply got involved. Sadly she was a pretty minor character.

Brooks

Says you, she's my avatar of choice.

Is a bit tougher on the Grub side. I pick the Grenadier because his shirt's off and is therefore probably a gay. Plus, Gonz's camouflage claim of that particular skin.

Tempy

Was mine too if you can recall so gay a time as early days on Gears 3.

Brooks

Then again, there's a specific rewardy-medal thing for playing 1000 matches with a female av, which seems to imply this condition was somehow challenging, or something. Anyway it's fucking weird.

Tempy

Because it makes you homo unlike playing as a crunting barge of rippling manflesh.

Games r weird.

Brooks

Apparently the most credible female gameperson in ages is in the the last fucking Warhammer 40K title of all things. I was told this.

Unfortunate twinning of "respectable female presence" with "bafflingly OTT fantasyworld" there.

ChattinWithChet

Kow wrote:

The idea of a male female is what many feminists rally against. Shoehorning women into positions of power is essentially perpetuating masculine systems of power and not actually a change of values in favour of women. NB - not necessarily my opinion, just repeating feminist theory, ok?

It's a funny one. The writers in Seinfeld were told to "write her like a man," for Elaine, which basically meant, allow her to be as funny as the other characters. I think if it is done right, disregarding the gender entirely can be a good way forward, and can end up being a perspective on an individual, rather than a perspective on gender. I would certainly prefer this to bad attempts at social commentary for sure.

Tempy

There was an ok article up on Eurogamer about how Bioware had accidentally created a great character out of the Female Shepherd by basically not bothering.

Which is good in one way, and bad in another.

adkm1979

Receptionist: Â I can't resist! Â You usually move through here so quickly and I just have so many questions I want to ask you. Â You have no idea what your work means to me.
Melvin Udall: Â What does it mean to you?Â
Receptionist: Â [stands up] Â When somebody out there knows what it's like...Â
[places one hand on her forehead and the other over her heart]
Receptionist: Â ...to be in here.
Melvin Udall: Â Oh God, this is like a nightmare.
[turns around and presses the elevator button multiple times]
Receptionist: Â Oh come on! Â Just a couple of questions. Â How hard is that?
[scampers up to Melvin]
Receptionist: Â How do you write women so well?
Melvin Udall: Â I think of a man, and I take away reason and accountability.

Diluted Dante

Tempy wrote:

There was an ok article up on Eurogamer about how Bioware had accidentally created a great character out of the Female Shepherd by basically not bothering. Which is good in one way, and bad in another.

I enjoyed that article. Apparently only 18% of people picked a female Shepard, which justified doing fuck all with her bar giving her tits. Which completely misses the point that despite you trying to shove your image of what the character is down our throats, 18% of your audience decided nope, Shepard is a chick.

Still, by essentially making you play as a man with boobs, they created a character who didn't suffer from many of the issues other female leads have.

We all agree that FemShep is a fucking awful name right?

Mod74

Why is it a man with boobs and not a woman with a dick?

Tempy

Diluted Dante wrote:

We all agree that FemShep is a fucking awful name right?

Yes, which is why I tried to avoid it. I think the VA gave her a character beyond what was written, as all voice actors should do. I absolutely cannot imagine playing Shepherd as a man, despite what all the promo stuff told me, Shepherd is a woman.

Diluted Dante

Mod74 wrote:

Why is it a man with boobs and not a woman with a dick?

Because they wrote the whole thing with the idea of you playing as a man, and threw in the option to have a female avatar because it's expected. so even though your character has boobs, she's really a man.

Sasukekun

adkm1979 wrote:

Receptionist: Â I can't resist! Â You usually move through here so quickly and I just have so many questions I want to ask you. Â You have no idea what your work means to me.
Melvin Udall: Â What does it mean to you?Â
Receptionist: Â [stands up] Â When somebody out there knows what it's like...Â [places one hand on her forehead and the other over her heart]
Receptionist: Â ...to be in here.
Melvin Udall: Â Oh God, this is like a nightmare. [turns around and presses the elevator button multiple times]
Receptionist: Â Oh come on! Â Just a couple of questions. Â How hard is that? [scampers up to Melvin]
Receptionist: Â How do you write women so well?
Melvin Udall: Â I think of a man, and I take away reason and accountability.

Awesome film.

Mod74

What "manly" things does she say/do?

ChattinWithChet

Yeah I can't say I noticed anything much that a woman couldn't / wouldn't have done. More to do with the position of Captain of the ship, rather than the gender.

Tempy

IIRC the point of the EG article was that by not trying to create a female character they avoided all the tropes associated, thus accidentally created a better one than they might have done otherwise. I'd link it but, jesus, google stuff.

ChattinWithChet

Why don't you google stuff? You're not the boss of me.

Mod74

Strikes me they wrote a "neutral" character where you decided what the character did, and thus could just as easily be a man or a woman.

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