I think I made Lara Croft climb a couple of monumental bellwastes last night in Egypt or something.

There were a fair bunch when the hash tag started on twitter, author needs to up his game. Hitler one was the best as well as:

"This industry that is 97% men is always putting men down!"

Am trying to think of some change in the status quo that'd threaten my sense of privilege as much as this discussion does for a quantity of Internet bros.

Would probably relate to the ease with which I can pirate stuff safely.

Again, it's a power issue: Who/what is defining the constituents of "sexy".

No one likes to feel they're being aesthetically strong-armed, and though that applies to all, women have tended to experience more of that pressure.

Typically, the commercial response has been to make guys start to feel that pressure too, rather than reform it for all.

Brooks wrote:

Again, it's a power issue: Who/what is defining the constituents of "sexy".

So, it'd be alright if women were creating sexy characters but not men?

As long as it falls into their view of sexy, and not the predominantly formed make view of sexy, I guess so.

Also I really don't think games reflect society.

Sorry, I'm late to the party, it's a patent-pending adkm-quotathon.

Mouldywarp wrote:

I think Samus is a brilliant female protagonist. She is completely 1-dimensional

If she's completely one-dimensional, it seems like the only reason she's female is to see her nekkid in the end.

Mouldywarp wrote:

I have a similar attitude to the "Hero" rescues "Damsel". Neither of these things are representative of real characters and therefore of real human beings. "Hero" is shorthand for "Player controlled device" and Damsel is shorthand for "Thing that signifies success". It could be a ball and a goal. Hero and Damsel were probably chosen unthinkingly out of tradition which I don't think is so bad, although I would be happy to play a game with reverse gender roles.

You're missing a few points here.  The man being the tool is an issue, the woman being the goal is an issue, the fact that we apply such ingrained sexism unthinkingly is an issue and is 'so bad'.

revelthedog wrote:

A more interesting game (which was said on the Watch Dogs Thread) would be to have the person sneak around without a gun. Or with a gun and a rubbish aim. Doesn't have to be a man or a woman then..  Wouldn't really matter.

Unfortunately it would.  I could see a backlash to making someone rubbish at traditional  character skill sets a woman.

RamSteelwood wrote:

i do find the argument about portraying 'real women' in games a bit silly...because there are no 'real men' portrayed either... yeah, so her tits are maybe too big to be realistic, but no one complains much that male protagonist B has shoulders that are too broad...

The problem isn't the realism, the problem is the inherent sexism.  Big shoulders implies strong, therefore able to achieve things.  Tits are just a wipe-clean surface to splodge on.  They are decoration, designed to highlight that women are more for decoration than achieving anything.

revelthedog wrote:

She deals with victims of violence as part of her job, and therefore found the Pub Scene at the beginning of Unchartered 3 to be a bit much.

With the greatest of respect to your wife, and at risk of negating anything I've said above, I'm tired of hearing this kind of thing. I don't want to start going off-topic, but there's a fine line between addressing harmful stereotypes and wrapping the world in cotton wool.

Tempy wrote:

@Fenton: Yes, also see: respecting slighly older tubby male manager vs. not respecting slighlty older tubby female manager.

Where do we stand on not respecting any older tubby manager regardless of gender?

Facewon wrote:

Water is still wet.

I think you'll find that water is sticky, and things that water is stuck to are wet, but otherwise carry on.

Bollockoff wrote:

Who here actually shaves their body hair?

Hello.  I shave my sack and trim everything else short.  I do it for the same reason I like woman to keep their pubic hair neatly trimmed: less hairy areas are easier to clean, keep clean, and short hairs are less likely to end up irritating the back of your throat.  I also used to shave my chest, back and (this'll get a reaction, I'm sure) armpits.

regmcfly wrote:

Inception meme holds up remarkably well. Good to see all the actual females posting here rather than men putting words in mouths.

The idea that only women can have legitimate issues with sexism in videogames is sexist.  I've not seen anyone putting words into women's mouths, just voicing their own valid opinions.  Trust the man with the feminist fiancée to roll that one out.  

Mod74 wrote:

I'm not sure Ms Moran would approve of your use of the word cunt, by the by.

As an aside, Germaine Greer prefers the word 'cunt' to the word 'vagina', since 'vagina' shares it's etymology with a sheath for a sword or dagger.

Mod74 wrote:

Oooooh...who's missing from that line up of Disney misogyny? Oh that's right, Pocahontas. A story that re-wrote historical facts to make her a stronger. braver character.

One or two decent female characters doesn't necessarily make up for the rest, though.

Mod74 wrote:

Tempy wrote:

Also I really don't think games reflect society.

But they have to. They're made by members of society with ideas of what "things" should be.

Obviously "society" is a very broad thing and you can find a million ideas of what "sexy" is, but they're all copied from the real world.

Ok. Games reflect societies views on what young men like and young men like things that society deems acceptable and overall, like it or not, society is a patriarchy and common preconceptions of womens roles and their representations in media are not really in line with the whole 'female equality' thing so I agree with you there (was posting on phone again).

Doesn't mean it's right though, hence feminism.

Baseline: all media currently suffers from 'the male gaze'. That is why being portrayed as 'sexy' is often deemed as offensive to women.

Because games are made for young men so will be full of things that sell to young men?

Finding women sexy isn't a bad thing, at all. The issue is reducing a woman to just that, which is what plenty of games and films do.

Videogames as we know them also have a particular problem re: vulnerability, a state most players are conditioned to avoid through rules and mechanics alone. Can't suppose that doesn't have an impact on character design (though hilaritragically not in some cases.)

A little tangent here - girl I know linked me to an experiment a couple are carrying out called "Gender Diary" where they are bringing up their two kids as gender neutral as possible and highlighting the difficulty in this.

Issues that I saw that stuck were toy catalogues showing only pictures of boys playing with microscope/telescope kits and two books about 'How to Survive the worst' where the Boys book was full of things like Earthquakes and Zombie Plagues, and the Girls book was full of things like 'chipped nails' and 'shopping at the weekend'.

I know, it is innocent kids stuff, and it is designed to make money, but it all reinforces some pretty crass ideals.

There was a comment in amongst the rubbish on the article I linked above which kind of hit the nail on the head. We're asking why women in games are simply (stereotypical) male fantasies, but let's face it, pretty much everything in games is a (stereotypical) male fantasy. The representation of not just women, but everything, is as tiresomely narrow.

But....

Books, toys, Disney films, games...they represent all views in society. If you don't like the way Snow White is written don't show it to your kids.

Some parents won't have a problem with it, some will.

You can't mould society into one viewpoint. All views are expressed and represented. You just have to select the ones you associate with. Getting all bent out of shape about the ones you don't like seems a bit futile. They're somebody somewheres opinion. It doesn't hold any more or less validity than yours.

adkm1979 wrote:

We've moved on, those pieces are of their time. Modern pieces are more enlightened and reflect modern ideas/morals.

The problem is, though, that the Disney Princesses are being pushed to little girls to this day.  We haven't really moved on at all. (As an aside, I'm baffled that you haven't changed your tastes since you were 13.  Slightly creeped out by the idea, actually...)

Parental selection, etc. Some women will have identified with the "princess" mindset long before Disney animated them.

As for your second, I was making a broad point. I obviously still don't fancy 13 year old girls, but from a physical appearance perspective I still have a "type".

As I've grown up I've learnt to avoid the nutters, that's about it.

I think the problem with the portrayal of women in games is exactly that they reflect society, or rather a male dominated society, which is what many feminists would wish to change. Any desire to change stereotypical depictions of women, or indeed men, reflects a desire to make changes in society.