Yossarian wrote:The point of a 2nd referendum is because there’s no parliamentary majority for any of our three options (May’s deal, no deal, remain). A referendum is likely to be the only way of breaking the parliamentary logjam.
LivDiv wrote:I'm very close to your argument as well tbh just leaning on the other side of the fence. I think we can hold off the far right upset in the case of remain, many of these people who voted leave hadn't voted before, they will go back to being uninterested, it's the actual voters that will pull us back to centrist or middle right.
Half those people shouting at Soubry are due a heart attack soon anyway. They wont see a 2021 election. Plus im more worried about reigniting the troubles than I am any brexiteers.
However you do make a point on delaying. It is why I was so pissed off about May delaying the vote on her deal, I can only see it as damaging.
Where you are is where my dad is when I speak to him. He retired last year and is obviously concerned about on going damage to his pension that he can no longer add to. He voted remain but just wants calm now. That is where investors are as well, markets thrive on stability and predictability in politics.
That is where the problems come in with May's deal as well. The backstop is nonsense. It doesn't resolve anything.
It will leave NI in limbo for a long time.
It can't be removed until a political or technogolical solution can be found. You can't solve 300 years of politics in 2 years, even if it was a competent gov being propped up by rational people. Instead we have the Monster Mash and the Munsters.
What I wanted to see May provide in the backstop plans was quotes from tech companies. Quotes on what exists, what can be developed, ballpark figures and timescales. I strongly suspect there is a good reason that wasn't outlined
Yossarian wrote:Parliament probably can’t decide, so chuck it back to the people.
monkey wrote:If May’s deal goes through, it’s more of the same with no end in sight. Two years for a trade deal, constant arguing, wishful thinking, that deadline can’t be met, then we’re in the same position, no one wants the backstop, no one wants longer transition, same twats saying we should just walk away.
There’s no plan that settles this though. A second referendum, remain winning, the government getting its act together and the country settling back to some kind of normality is probably just as wishful as the mad fantasies of the ERG.
Armitage_Shankburn wrote:Yossarian wrote:Parliament probably can’t decide, so chuck it back to the people.
You think if the people vote for no deal that parliament would sign up to that? That, I do think, would be treason imo.
Armitage_Shankburn wrote:monkey wrote:If May’s deal goes through, it’s more of the same with no end in sight. Two years for a trade deal, constant arguing, wishful thinking, that deadline can’t be met, then we’re in the same position, no one wants the backstop, no one wants longer transition, same twats saying we should just walk away.
There’s no plan that settles this though. A second referendum, remain winning, the government getting its act together and the country settling back to some kind of normality is probably just as wishful as the mad fantasies of the ERG.
If remain win in a second referendum, even if 55-45 is the result, what will follow will be constant arguing, the coalescing of leavers behind a single political force quite possibly, talk of treason and betrayal. Civil unrest possibly.
We fucked it lads. It's damage limitation now.
LivDiv wrote:We are at a precipice.
I'm not sure there is an answer that can guarantee or even come close to guaranteeing there won't be upset. Every option leads to darkness on some level in some area.
Yossarian wrote:Armitage_Shankburn wrote:monkey wrote:If May’s deal goes through, it’s more of the same with no end in sight. Two years for a trade deal, constant arguing, wishful thinking, that deadline can’t be met, then we’re in the same position, no one wants the backstop, no one wants longer transition, same twats saying we should just walk away.
There’s no plan that settles this though. A second referendum, remain winning, the government getting its act together and the country settling back to some kind of normality is probably just as wishful as the mad fantasies of the ERG.
If remain win in a second referendum, even if 55-45 is the result, what will follow will be constant arguing, the coalescing of leavers behind a single political force quite possibly, talk of treason and betrayal. Civil unrest possibly.
We fucked it lads. It's damage limitation now.
Leavers hate May’s deal, remainers hate May’s deal, I don’t see May’s deal as a way out of arguing, talk of treason or civil unrest.
LivDiv wrote:Makes sense to me as well Gonz. Really does. It's just that global politics and economies are so fragile it doesn't take much to put a sledgehammer through it all and we swing further right, like really fucked up right.
Yossarian wrote:May’s deal was polling at around 14% popularity, behind both remain and no deal. Even with a margin of error on that, there’s fuck all of the population that would actually be on board with it.
Yossarian wrote:I do see your point, I just don't see it getting through parliament.
Armitage_Shankburn wrote:Full disclosure: I've gone balls deep into the alt right the last month I've had WhatsApp exchanges with a friend who says things like "people are ready to kill", calls Merkel a traitor, says whites are under threat etc. I may not have the most objective viewpoint / may be overestimayoovthe problem. I may be suffering from congotconfir bias when I see signs of such people. But I see it everywhere. I mean, if you want, I can link you a Herbert marcuse interview on the been in the 60s. Because it's about the Frankfurter school, almost every comment is vile. Eg "Germans".
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