Strength [+2] - The Bear and Badger

Skerret

I keep a record of what I lifted the last week cos sometimes I forget. This is for the big lifts though, the supplementary stuff is a bit of a free for all. Not that it matters much at the moment given I'm restricted.

hylian_elf

My diary doesn't hold me back. I must be doing it wrong.

Skerret

My diary weighs 154kg btw

Verecocha

hylian_elf wrote:

My diary doesn't hold me back. I must be doing it wrong.

You know that how? You had a professional personal trainer tell you and show you the difference it makes in time, attitude and dem gainz?

Like I said it is personal opinion, but backed up by years of training both fat lazy shits and professional sports people.

Lord_Griff

Skerret's Jim D1ary: 21nd December:
dear diary, today was real tough, Shane wouldn't share the 5s so I had to wait aaaages to do my curls, I told him to wrack off and now I don't think he likes me.. sigh.. he spent all session following Brucey after that and wouldn't go for a milkshake with me afterwards. I did 17 skips in a row, the best out of everyone, that's why they call me Skippy. Mom picked me up early and we went for paleo ice creams.

MoesTavern

Verecocha wrote:

MoesTavern wrote:

Verecocha wrote:

I love seeing other peoples training, I made a point of tearing up people's training diaries when I started training them. It holds you back more than anything. On everything apart from deadlifting and squatting do one set to warm up then 4/5 sets doing as many 6-10 reps with the heaviest weight you can manage. Only way to train.

How does keeping a training diary hold you back?

Because 99% of people who use them are only limited by them. What does it tell you? It tells you what you did on a certain day in terms of weight and reps, what does that mean in the scheme of things? Nothing, the only thing that really matters should be the last set you did on each exercise. Because that should really be what you start on next time, or very near. Every day you go in the gym your body is in a significantly different state due to a number of factors, most of which you don't have much control over. Your aim should be to go in every day and give a 100% of what you have that day. People with diaries tend to just stick to exactly what they did previous or very very close when you should be doing anew order and different exercises so what does it even tell you?. It should be a new challenge every day to do with technique, speed and weight. Referring to a diary slows you down far too much. You know what body part you're doing all day, you should know what exercises you're doing when you step in the gym, and you should start by picking up the heaviest weight or best weight you can and go from there, too heavy today then go down, too light then go up etc. A diary will hold you back and means so very very little. You should know 10/15 exercises per part that work for you, just you, who gives a shite about anyone else, choose 4/5 a day for whatever you're doing and go in and arsehole them. One exercise, done bang on to the next, if anything a diary should say all the things you already know, best chest press, best squat, best dead etc. Diaries hold you back, if you look at the biggest or leanest or whateverist people at the gym you admire I can bet my arsehole they do not have a diary, they've got a goal and each day they give 100% if what they have that day to get there. I worked for many years as a PT so while this is of course just my opinion...it's right.

So you'd recommend that for a beginner rather than a programme with planned progression?

hylian_elf

74.35kg this morning, more or less the same as 2 weeks ago (74.2). Although I weighed myself after some Weetabix, don't think it makes any real difference.

Gotta make more effort to go 3 times a week as I've only been doing 2x for past few weeks.

Edit: just checked my diary. After today it will have been 7 sessions in a month. Not good. Part of that was due to a bout of man-flu though, but I do need to up my game.

Verecocha

MoesTavern wrote:

Verecocha wrote:

MoesTavern wrote:

Verecocha wrote:

I love seeing other peoples training, I made a point of tearing up people's training diaries when I started training them. It holds you back more than anything. On everything apart from deadlifting and squatting do one set to warm up then 4/5 sets doing as many 6-10 reps with the heaviest weight you can manage. Only way to train.

How does keeping a training diary hold you back?

Because 99% of people who use them are only limited by them. What does it tell you? It tells you what you did on a certain day in terms of weight and reps, what does that mean in the scheme of things? Nothing, the only thing that really matters should be the last set you did on each exercise. Because that should really be what you start on next time, or very near. Every day you go in the gym your body is in a significantly different state due to a number of factors, most of which you don't have much control over. Your aim should be to go in every day and give a 100% of what you have that day. People with diaries tend to just stick to exactly what they did previous or very very close when you should be doing anew order and different exercises so what does it even tell you?. It should be a new challenge every day to do with technique, speed and weight. Referring to a diary slows you down far too much. You know what body part you're doing all day, you should know what exercises you're doing when you step in the gym, and you should start by picking up the heaviest weight or best weight you can and go from there, too heavy today then go down, too light then go up etc. A diary will hold you back and means so very very little. You should know 10/15 exercises per part that work for you, just you, who gives a shite about anyone else, choose 4/5 a day for whatever you're doing and go in and arsehole them. One exercise, done bang on to the next, if anything a diary should say all the things you already know, best chest press, best squat, best dead etc. Diaries hold you back, if you look at the biggest or leanest or whateverist people at the gym you admire I can bet my arsehole they do not have a diary, they've got a goal and each day they give 100% if what they have that day to get there. I worked for many years as a PT so while this is of course just my opinion...it's right.

So you'd recommend that for a beginner rather than a programme with planned progression?

Not entirely but very similar. What do you mean by planned progression? How do you plan progression? I'm not being facetious just want to answer the question properly.

MoesTavern

Progression from session to session, i.e. attempting to lift heavier and heavier in small increments each time, rather than going in and doing what you 'feel' like on that day. Linear progression programmes such as Starting Strength and Stronglifts for example.

Verecocha

MoesTavern wrote:

Progression from session to session, i.e. attempting to lift heavier and heavier in small increments each time, rather than going in and doing what you 'feel' like on that day. Linear progression programmes such as Starting Strength and Stronglifts for example.

So from session to session how do you know where your strength is today? What your heaviest lifts should be today? How do you decide what these incremental lifts are? By looking at what you did last time based on a set of completely different circumstances? What you've eaten, when, how you've slept, what your muscle condition is. It isn't about what you feel like, it's about picking up heaviest you can that day based on your rep range. Do you want to waste time on weights you've shifted a thousand times because you know you can, or do you want to go in and see what you can lift, press, pull? The amount of people that go in and do 12,10,8,6 etc and will never get anywhere as they've wasted alllll their energy on weights they've been doing forever is massive. Waste of time. There's trainers that will train you as slow as possible for your money, and there's thise that want a walking advertisement for how badass they are at their job, I was the latter.

MoesTavern

You know what your heaviest lifts should be today because you record what you did last time. The programme itself decides what the incremental increases are, it tends to be 1-2 kilos each session depending on the lift IIRC

The rest of what you've written isn't really relevant to my question.

Verecocha

MoesTavern wrote:

You know what your heaviest lifts should be today because you record what you did last time. The programme itself decides what the incremental increases are, it tends to be 1-2 kilos each session depending on the lift IIRC

The rest of what you've written isn't really relevant to my question.

Why is it not?How are 1-2 kilos per session representative of everyone? How? So your heaviest last time was your heaviest after how many? Was it your heaviest as that's what you're caoabke of or because you wasted your time and energy on light weights that will do fuck all for you?

Who makes this programme and tells you it's the right thing to do?

MoesTavern

I don't understand what you mean by 'representative of everyone'

You aim for 5x5 (or 3x5 on Starting Strength) with your working weight, then add the increase next session if you achieved that. If not you stay at that weight.

the rest of it wasn't relevant as I didn't say anything about pyramid sets or wasting energy on weights you know you can do.

Escape

Verecocha wrote:

The amount of people that go in and do 12,10,8,6

Perhaps they're interested in maintenance with reduced injury risk? Carl Froch keeps a diary.

Shane gets all the chicks, but.

Verecocha

MoesTavern wrote:

I don't understand what you mean by 'representative of everyone'

You aim for 5x5 (or 3x5 on Starting Strength) with your working weight, then add the increase next session if you achieved that. If not you stay at that weight.

the rest of it wasn't relevant as I didn't say anything about pyramid sets or wasting energy on weights you know you can do.

Because if you're adding 1-2 kilos a session, how do you know you could of gone up by 5? Are you doing 5x5 at the same weight or going up? How can anyone say 1-2 kilos per session is enough in terms of a raise of weight? And if you didn't achieve it this session why would you not next? Try the first at the higher weight and then drop down if you need.

Diaries tell people what they've done but without any indication as to why.

Escape wrote:

Verecocha wrote:

The amount of people that go in and do 12,10,8,6

Perhaps they're interested in maintenance with reduced injury risk?

But who's to say that maintains anything? That kind of work will potentially send you backwards as much as it will keep you standing still. And injuries are very rarely proportionate to weight, unless somebody is being an idiot. As long as your technique is right with the weight and is manageable, yes more weight raises your chance of it going wrong slightly, but it's usually somebody doing something wrong or I hate to say it but bad luck.

Escape

How big are these people? A lot of guys want fitness-model bodies.

I wouldn't like to weigh more than 180.

MoesTavern

You go up in small increments because it prevents you stalling too quickly, getting stuck at a weight and having to drop it down. You add weight after you successfully get 5x5 sets across. If you don't get it you try again next time.

Verecocha

MoesTavern wrote:

You go up in small increments because it prevents you stalling too quickly, getting stuck at a weight and having to drop it down. You add weight after you successfully get 5x5 sets across. If you don't get it you try again next time.

Isn't it better to stall at the best weight your body can do and do that to improve strength and power than to waste time doing weights it does easily? You go up in small increments because the message over years of PT'ing is slow people down, make more money. With the internet it's even more widespread. Do what you're capabke of not comfortable with. Your body is always going to stall. It'll get past that by building strength and muscle. The best way to do that is to tackle heavy weights. I don't understand why you think building to the wall slowly is better then getting to it and over it as soon as possible.

Escape wrote:

How big are these people? A lot of guys want fitness-model bodies.

I wouldn't like to weigh more than 180.

What's that gotta do with anything? Fitness model bodies work the same as anyone's, you wanna burn fat and get lean? The best way to do it is by building muscle, best way to do that is lifting heavy weights. The way you shape your body is more diet and what exercises you decide to do.

Knight

You guys aren't disagreeing. If you can't do 5x5 with adequate rest (I'd say 3x5 but it's not a massive difference) then the weight is heavy for you and doing it IS pushing you. Once you can do that weight you go up a small amount because that's all your body will be able to cope with (unless you're a novice and then you can shoot up pretty quickly).

The idea of novices doing anything other than the upper limit of what they can cope with is, I agree, dumb. When you squat do the heaviest weight you can do for 3x5, the next time you squat add a small amount on. Rinse and repeat.

hylian_elf

They do indeed seem to be saying the same thing but differently.

hylian_elf

Anyway, 90kg on deadlift. Doubt I'll get to 100kg by end of year.

MoesTavern

So you're saying that stalling almost immediately is fine? how do you get past that stall? how do you 'get past that by building strength and muscle' if you can't increase the weight you're lifting?

hylian_elf

I took Verecocha to mean that once you get to your 'plateau' weight, it's fine to stick to it.

What I don't get is how you can tell what your max weight is unless you get there by increasing weight each session while you're a novice.

Knight

MoesTavern wrote:

So you're saying that stalling almost immediately is fine? how do you get past that stall? how do you 'get past that by building strength and muscle' if you can't increase the weight you're lifting?

If you're starting out for the very first time it's a good idea to start low, that enables you to work on form for the lifts while the weight is manageable.

Elf, it's not fine to stick to your plateau weight. If you plateau you need to go down a little and work back up. Not a huge amount but a little.

Verecocha

MoesTavern wrote:

So you're saying that stalling almost immediately is fine? how do you get past that stall? how do you 'get past that by building strength and muscle' if you can't increase the weight you're lifting?

Of course it is,it's not a bad thing at all. In fact it's a good thing. You simply keep going at that weight till you hit the next. As long as your form and technique is right then you're doing what your body is capable of, no more and more importantly no less.

My 5x6 chest press with dumb bells hasn't changed much in years as for one thing there's not much I can gain in strength at the weight I want to be at, and two the nearest gym I have to practice with the 80/85 KG bells is an 80 minute round trip, after work that's not gonna happen so if chest falls on a weekend that's my only shot.

Verecocha

Knight wrote:

MoesTavern wrote:

So you're saying that stalling almost immediately is fine? how do you get past that stall? how do you 'get past that by building strength and muscle' if you can't increase the weight you're lifting?

If you're starting out for the very first time it's a good idea to start low, that enables you to work on form for the lifts while the weight is manageable.

Elf, it's not fine to stick to your plateau weight. If you plateau you need to go down a little and work back up. Not a huge amount but a little.

See I just don't agree with that, if we're at the same meaning. If say you're doing 5x5 squat at 170kg, if you can manage 5x5 go up, if next time you get say 3x5 I'd do that then drop it for 2x5 and keep trying for 5x5 until you get it, work at that till you hit it well for maybe 2/3 weeks with perfect form then go up.

I do not mean plateau forever of course, just find a way to keep raising it, a lot of it is mental. I don't do the angry thing, I need peace.

Knight

You're going down in that situation as well, it's just you're going down with fewer reps rather than less weight.

Verecocha

Knight wrote:

You're going down in that situation as well, it's just you're going down with fewer reps rather than less weight.

That's why I explained it as I imsgined we were making the same point.

Skerret

We're all in agreement then. I'll have a target weight and reps for a given lift and if I'm feeling good, I'll exceed that rep target. If I'm not, I'll just barely hit it.

Escape

If I ever get into lifting, my targets will be as high as possible without weighing more than 80 keys, always avoiding slow lifts.

Pendleton was able to deadlift 150 at 60. That's cool.

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