Elmlea wrote:

I don't think I could ever support capital punishment anymore.  Not only is there always a fraction of a percentage change that someone's actually innocent, there's always so much more to the reasons people do things.  Rehabilitation is always better, it just costs much more.

This is about where I am at with it.
I think that despite the costs rehabilitation would be better overall for society. I don't believe in "evil", there is a reason these people have committed these crimes and whether if that is medical or social we need these people alive and mainly cooperative to understand it. We can then use that information to hopefully avoid others committing the same crime.

Yeah of course, but if they are dead they definitely cant. I'm not against rehabilitated people being released but I'm not sure we know enough yet about the worst of criminals to do so. In time we might but it takes proper work and funding in that area.

The whole defund the police argument can work similarly to defunding prisons, particularly in America.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jun/18/uncle-bens-rice-firm-to-scrap-brand-image-of-black-farmer

Uncle Ben's is going...

Also, so might be the rugby song, ...swing low..sweet chariot...

As its racist apparently (i know nothing about rugby).

Capital punishment as a deterrent doesn't work; no one who is going to commit a crime that would warrant it by those advocating it ever thinks, 'you know what, I won't because I may get the death penalty' imo.

I'm staunchly anti death penalty and agree with others who say that a lifetime of imprisonment is more of a punishment. Also agree that rehabilitation, where possible, is preferred.

I acknowledge that I would probably argue against this stance if I had a loved one affected, but I'd hope there would be someone arguing against me, as much as I'd protest. It's not a pleasant thing to fight against those who are affected. (Not sure if that sentence makes sense, forgive me).

Dinostar77 wrote:

One of the prisoners was in for 11 life sentences and a total of 512 years. He'd done some very nasty stuff to people during home invasions. Anyway that chap has been in prisons of one sort or another since age 11. He was now 22. So prison is all hes really known. In those cases, where hes a burden on the system for the rest of his life, maybe death penalty maybe better?!?

Something happened to him to set him off down that path, because that's not normal behaviour nor a normal psyche.  Now imagine that prison system, instead of purely being there to dehumanise, punish, and in the US, commodify him for virtual slave labour, was set up to examine, rehabilitate, understand, train and develop him.  Proper access to psychiatry, to doctors, to education, to therapy of whatever type they needed.

Maybe it wouldn't always work, and people would be there forever.  But there would be plenty of people who otherwise would just sit in prison for the ridiculous length of US sentences then leave again with no opportunities and not many options other than returning to crime.  Those people could come out as functioning members of society.

Of course, the system doesn't have to churn out 500 year sentences in the first place, and plenty of countries seem to have remarkable success with more open and rehabilitative prison regimes.  The last series of the podcast Serial was pretty eye opening about the total stupidity of many in the US justice system.  I can't even get over elected judges.

Dinostar77 wrote:

GooberTheHat wrote:

Not everyone can be rehabilitated though. Life in prison for those types should mean life. If they can't be rehabilitated they should be released.

A louis theroux epsiode was repeated on bbc earlier this week when he visited a prison in San Francisco.
One of the prisoners was in for 11 life sentences and a total of 512 years. He'd done some very nasty stuff to people during home invasions. Anyway that chap has been in prisons of one sort or another since age 11. He was now 22. So prison is all hes really known.

In those cases, where hes a burden on the system for the rest of his life, maybe death penalty maybe better?!?

I don't think we have the right to take life because it is more convenient.

I had a big ol' post ready to reply to that but decided against, since, y'know, sometimes better to listen. But I have to ask: what did you mean when you said you were waiting to see if the people directly involved will see any prison time at all?

It was clear from the outset they wouldn't - legal twitter came in with all sorts of reasons why even if they were caught red-handed, they could essentially be let off completely, and that's what would happen. Are you implying that had the people who tore it down been black, then it would've been a different story?

Funkstain wrote:

Are you implying that had the people who tore it down been black, then it would've been a different story?

To be clear, I'd agree with that implication, and I think I understand the broader point you're making: these white activists focusing on statues are a) a bit too keen to congratulate themselves on racism being solved now the statue of the bad man is gone and b) attacking "safe" targets that do little to impact root causes of racism, in fact if anything, cause flare-ups of, ahem, "counter protest" movements (aka massive racists).

I suppose the only answer I'd have for that is just because it's a relatively small gesture, it's still probably worth doing - letting rich people whitewash their nefarious past and getting statues as a reward isn't something to be encouraged and it shows at least some awareness

Dinostar77 wrote:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jun/18/uncle-bens-rice-firm-to-scrap-brand-image-of-black-farmer Uncle Ben's is going... Also, so might be the rugby song, ...swing low..sweet chariot... As its racist apparently (i know nothing about rugby).

Swing Low Sweet Chariot was written by a slave in the 1800s and I have never understood why it has been sung since I found that out, I don't even think it's particularly uncommon knowledge for people familiar with it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53111295

Racist troll Hopkins suspended from Twitter.

Also lol:

Every time I go into this thread the phrase "I hear you're a racist now Father" is in my head.

Cannot shake it.

I hear you're a racist now, Father.

Good for you, Father! Good for you! Somebody finally had the guts to stand up and say it! They come over here, after our jobs and our women, fecking Greeks!

Interesting...the guy is a cunt, but I wonder what grounds him and his mrs employers used to fire them?

Edit: Ahhh. Looking up the news there's a quote from the engineering company that the guy worked for.

They told Sky News: "We have concluded our investigation into the conduct of one of our employees in relation to an incident at the Burnley vs Manchester City match, as well as other related matters.

"We have concluded that there has been a breach of the company's various policies and procedures. The individual no longer works for the company."

I can't help but notice the phrase "other related matters", so I'm going to assume that following the guy's details coming to light in the press, his company have run through his work PC/Phone and found he'd been using it to organise this shit on company time, or just using company property in the organising of this shitfest.

Kow wrote:

It's a recurring joke in here. Don't you read other people's posts?

Heh.