Superhero Films: Will They Ever Take Off? - The Bear and Badger

Syph79

WW was - in my view - a passable superhero movie, with inflated reviews because it's miles ahead of anything else DC have put out recently. It's great that there's a female lead, but when you think about it almost every major decision she makes in that movie is because of Chris Pine's character. She even falls in love with him. So much for strong independent woman. Also that twist, fuck off with that.

RedDave2

I was surprised with the romance angle as well. Did not fit at all with either the movie itself or the hype surrounding it.

regmcfly

g.man wrote:

I expect once we get into Marvel's Phase 4 and the prospect of New Avengers, we'll see stuff like Mexican Man and Captain China being promoted to the ranks too.

Sorry dude but this isn't cool. When we are talking wonder woman we are talking 50% of the world. When we are talking Black Panther... Well, you just need to see the utter insane gangbusters that movie is doing in America. Wonder why that is.

g.man

Nah, what's not cool is that Black Panther was created by a couple of white dudes in the mid 60's who then waited thirty-two years to give an actual black guy a shot at the writing duties, and are you seriously going to turn a blind eye to Hollywood shoe-horning asian characters and settings into just about every blockbuster they can in recent years? Movie making is about one thing for the studios. Making money. If they see an untapped market they can monetise, then they're usually in there like Flynn, and usually in the most lead-footed way possible.

regmcfly

My dude the creators of black panther bear nothing to the current cinematic landscape. Are we gonna go Kavalier and Clay on Justice League? I'm not buying this. Maybe best to say " yeah, shitty joke"

regmcfly

If Hollywood is about untapped markets, why has it taken so long after blaxploitation/Madea et Al have proven money makers to do this? Cmon now

regmcfly

And either way, it's a crummy joke against much needed diversity in film

g.man

It really isn't. Of course it's good to see diversity in the mainstream film industry, but I don't for one minute think it's being done for any noble reason. Christ, if it wasn't for social media, Hollywood would still be labouring under the delusion that it's acceptable to cast caucasians in asian roles.

Yossarian

Does Hollywood do anything for any noble reason?

regmcfly

It's absolutely not that but the point is there's a thirsty audience for these things. The reason it's profitable is that these marginalised groups have gone unserved for years, so of course they will flock to something (again, see BP takings.) It's possible for both sides of the creator and audience to be placated by this without need for snark.

bad_hair_day

Yossarian wrote:

Does Hollywood do anything for any noble reason?

It thinks it is when pushing the left wing/feminist/environmental agenda in space fantasy movies.

regmcfly

Sigh. We are getting into real basic supply demand and also ignoring creators and the concept of artistic creation here. This really frustrated me, as box office and audience appeal is essentially the core crux of my degree, and also what I continue to work on and study even though I no longer teach it, and I always feel I'm being patronised to by ultra redundant comments.

bad_hair_day

Yossarian

You reckon? I’m quite sure that if Hollywood thought it’d make more money by dropping them, it’d do so in a heartbeat.

g.man

Now being reported that Joss Whedon has stepped down from the Batgirl film he's been attached to for the last year. Also being reported that DC and new head honcho Walter Hamada are planning to replace him with a female director more in keeping with the current climate. source

"Industry sources add that even as Whedon faced story issues, in today's cultural entertainment environment, a male filmmaker may have faced greater public scrutiny if he were to have tackled a movie with such feminist importance such as Batgirl or Wonder Woman, much like a white filmmaker would have seen backlash taking on the Black Panther movie." source

dat Hollywood eh?

g.man

cosmicjellybean

I fail to see why the audience being more discerning and voting with their wallet means that diversity in cinema is a bad thing. Hollywood is reacting to what to people want to see, and it turns out, a lot of people want more diversity, or to even see a representation of themselves on screen.

It'd be like saying more films dealing with gay relationships is a bad thing because it's 'only because moonlight won the oscar and made money'.

Dark Soldier

Moonlight > Black Panther.

And Get Out is shit if I can just take the chance to reiterate. Given it three goes, it is utterly bereft of anything.

Gotta state I haven't seen Black Panther and probably never will as everything comic book is by the numbers drivel, but I just wanted to say Moonlight is the most important, and powerful 'black' film in the past ten years.

I'm all for diversity, its much needed, but the level of ultra early reviews and praise for BP was off the chain lol. I doubt its as groundbreaking as many say, perhaps in the current climate as to cast and exposure, but again, I've no doubt the film is primarily drivel.

And with that I've no problem in people liking these films, it just feels like a constant influx of them beyond the pale. But sales, and constant talk means more and more and more. As H said, do something original, they're all, pretty much, same beat plots, three acts, arrival, downfall, redemption, catchphrase or two, introduction, wake me up. That's modern Hollywood for you.

Escape

Money-Man, the hero we deserve.

Vintage comics were low-rent and crafted with a resultant amount of love, which Hollywood's too rich to replicate. Not since Harryhausen's time, anyway.

Kow

They're not fooling me with all this diversity. It's still shit superheros hitting things movies.

djchump

I'd be interested to hear how women and black people feel about representation in popcorn stuff like WW and BP.
IMHO, as a (mostly) white dude, it's fucking great that worthy, well-made films like Moonlight get Oscars and critical acclaim and popularity, but I would have thought that representation is even more important in the popcorn blockbuster fluff that the mainstream audiences watch for entertainment - because far more people seen them and it's more likely to get that role-model across. "If they can see it, they can be it". Most kids aren't watching films like Moonlight, but they are seeing the superhero stuff.

But hey, why not both? More of everthing is fine with me.

The films might not be the best films ever made, but as a (mostly) white dude I'm probably not gonna be able to judge how cool it'll be for folk that have been watching white men do everything in the films for so long to suddenly see someone they can relate to a bit more up there.

/shrug

Gremill

When you describe yourself as mostly white are you subtly trying to tell us that you enjoy blacking up?

djchump

Only for funerals and other special occasions.

Dark Soldier

Kids should watch Moonlight and not BP bro

tin_robot

djchump wrote:

I'd be interested to hear how women and black people feel about representation in popcorn stuff like WW and BP.

From an entirely unrepresentative sample of two, my teenage daughters didn't really rate Wonder Woman all that much. I think the only person in my family who thought it was a positive representation of women was me. The issue being that, having not been brought up on an island of Amazonian women created by a (male) God, they didn't relate to WW at all. The fact she was a woman didn't change the fact that she wasn't really anything like them.

They've found quite a few superheroes in comics that they do like, and relate to - my eldest adores Ms Marvel, my youngest thinks Squirrel Girl is hilarious - in part I suspect because both are characters who have (beyond the superpower thing) lives that reflect their own in one way or another. Wonder Woman leaves them cold however.

There seems to be a view that the key to representation is simply to have the relevant sexes and races on screen. Whilst I guess that's a helpful start, it's a long way short of the destination. (I can't comment on BP as I haven't seen it yet, and have no real frame of reference to comment on it even if I had.)

(Obviously this problem extends way beyond superhero movies. My wife for instance complained after we saw The Big Sick that on the one hand she was delighted to see a film that she felt represented her broad experience of being an asian in a Western country, but on the other was really irritated it only seemed to extend that realism as far as the main male character, and that the women still fell broadly into clumsy stereotypes.)

djchump

Dark Soldier wrote:

Kids should watch Moonlight and not BP bro

Get your placard out and walk the streets then.

djchump

tin_robot wrote:

djchump wrote:

I'd be interested to hear how women and black people feel about representation in popcorn stuff like WW and BP.

From an entirely unrepresentative sample of two, my teenage daughters didn't really rate Wonder Woman all that much. I think the only person in my family who thought it was a positive representation of women was me. The issue being that, having not been brought up on an island of Amazonian women created by a (male) God, they didn't relate to WW at all. The fact she was a woman didn't change the fact that she wasn't really anything like them.

Aye, that makes sense.

tin_robot wrote:

They've found quite a few superheroes in comics that they do like, and relate to - my eldest adores Ms Marvel, my youngest thinks Squirrel Girl is hilarious - in part I suspect because both are characters who have (beyond the superpower thing) lives that reflect their own in one way or another.

Have they had a look at the new Batgirl run? I quite liked what I saw of it, but that's cos I've always prefered the local-hero level of stories over the "save the city/world/universe/multiverse" level.

tin_robot wrote:

Wonder Woman leaves them cold however. There seems to be a view that the key to representation is simply to have the relevant sexes and races on screen. Whilst I guess that's a helpful start, it's a long way short of the destination.

True. More of everything would be nice.

tin_robot wrote:

(I can't comment on BP as I haven't seen it yet, and have no real frame of reference to comment on it even if I had.) ...

Yeah, that's my main stance for a lot of things these days. A lot of the time I don't really need to have an opinion on subjects.

poprock

Just as an aside, the Fast & Furious films make pretty good bank for genuinely racially diverse mainstream action flicks …

Go back to the first two or three movies and they were led from a white American male perspective, but even then the supporting cast were well and truly diverse and were fully realised characters – not just viewed through the white lead’s perspective but given stories of their own. By the latest in the franchise you have an ensemble cast that pretty much any English-speaking audience member can see something of themselves in.

JRPC

tin_robot wrote:

Wonder Woman leaves them cold however. There seems to be a view that the key to representation is simply to have the relevant sexes and races on screen. Whilst I guess that's a helpful start, it's a long way short of the destination.

I found WW to be severely lacking in its feminist credentials. Captain Kirk did a lot of the actual heroics there (and was often centre-screen to WW I seem to remember). It lacked conviction but Gaddot was amazing enough to make or a winner. Just!

BP is a real deal though and seems to be getting recognition for being exactly that.

Totally agree with you Chump that BP-like popcorn flicks are going to be more important than your Moonlights. Kids will grow up and be shaped by this stuff.

djchump wrote:

(I can't comment on BP as I haven't seen it yet, and have no real frame of reference to comment on it even if I had.) ...

Yeah, that's my main stance for a lot of things these days. A lot of the time I don't really need to have an opinion on subjects.

What on earth are you both on about?

You don't need to be black to get why BP is a big deal and to get all excited about it.

Surely there's enough shared interracial humanity there to muster a little empathy?

tin_robot

JRPC wrote:

What on earth are you both on about? I hope you're not suggesting you need to be black to get why BP is a big deal and to get all excited about it.

I'm suggesting that I don't really know whether BP represents "the black experience" (I hate that phrase, but seems the quickest way to express what I'm getting at) because I'm a white middle class guy living in a part of the country so un-cosmopolitan that when I walked down the street with my mixed race daughter in the pram, a woman stopped and asked me what country I had adopted her from.

I get that it's a big deal in terms of being a blockbuster movie with a predominantly black cast. (As well as being a big deal because it's the new Marvel movie.) I don't have a handle on whether it's a film that's really any old white guy superhero movie just with a black cast, or a film that explores and is sensitive to themes that would only ever work with a black cast. If you see the distinction? Is this a film that will inspire black kids, and girls, because it resonates with them - or is it another film that plays to white male fantasies, whilst allowing us to think we're doing better because of "representation"? I fear I can't meaningfully comment on the first, and am likely at least partially blind to the second.

djchump

@JRPC:
/shrug

I mean, I can presume it might mean a lot to people, but I haven't walked in them shoes so I can't really *know* how much it may or may not mean. If black folk tell me their opinion then I take it onboard, but I don't see it as my place to speak for others or, worse, tell them what their opinion should be. By all accounts I've seen BP has made a lot of folk very happy, which has made Coogler and the team very happy, so it seems pretty fucking awesome in that respect!

https://twitter.com/theblackpanther/status/966115260657819648/photo/1

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