The Paleo thread of keeping fit and looking healthy - or the other way around - The Bear and Badger

google

Turtle o Wurtle said:
Lot of fat too, coconut milk is shite.

Mate, you obviously know how to work out, but you know fuck all about nutrition.

Coconut Milk is basically God's nectar.

Speedhaak

If there is one thing I've learned in the last two years going to a few different gyms and taking advice from several different trainers it's that everyone has an opinion when it comes to training and nutrition. So if we could just keep this thread as a point of encouragement to those training as opposed to bashing routines and what not [not saying anyone is...] that would be cool!

google

Speedhaak said:
If there is one thing I've learned in the last two years going to a few different gyms and taking advice from several different trainers it's that everyone has an opinion when it comes to training and nutrition. So if we could just keep this thread as a point of encouragement to those training as opposed to bashing routines and what not [not saying anyone is...] that would be cool!

Agreed on the encouragement, but this should also be a forum for education.

There are many 'facts' that are massively untrue.

Turtle o Wurtle

I know, but good fat. Olive oil, fish oil etc. I think coconut oil is on the bad list. maybe its on the fence between good/bad.

Aren't you hideously bloated training on a stomach full of that much food? I'd puke. Everywhere.

@ HAAK

Turtle o Wurtle

google said:

Turtle o Wurtle said:
Lot of fat too, coconut milk is shite.

Mate, you obviously know how to work out, but you know fuck all about nutrition.

Coconut Milk is basically God's nectar.

http://www.abc.net.au/health/thepulse/stories/2008/09/25/2372372.htm

google

Turtle o Wurtle said:

google said:

Turtle o Wurtle said:
Lot of fat too, coconut milk is shite.

Mate, you obviously know how to work out, but you know fuck all about nutrition.

Coconut Milk is basically God's nectar.

http://www.abc.net.au/health/thepulse/stories/2008/09/25/2372372.htm

http://www.drgranny.com/2011/05/05/benefits-of-coconut-milk/

Speedhaak

Speedhaak said:
If there is one thing I've learned in the last two years going to a few different gyms and taking advice from several different trainers it's that everyone has an opinion when it comes to training and nutrition. So if we could just keep this thread as a point of encouragement to those training as opposed to bashing routines and what not [not saying anyone is...] that would be cool!

Agreed on the encouragement, but this should also be a forum for education.

There are many 'facts' that are massively untrue.

Yeah, of course. But I don't think we should be the ones educating people :P -- However, if people have resourceful links or solid info then by all means.

@Turtle

I don't train in the morning. Only in the evening. And yeah, I would puke if I ate all that and went on a session.

google

Speedhaak said:
Yeah, of course. But I don't think we should be the ones educating people :P -- However, if people have resourceful links or solid info then by all means.

@Turtle

I don't train in the morning. Only in the evening. And yeah, I would puke if I ate all that and went on a session.

Without wanting to drone on about this too much, I've read a number of books in the last couple of months relating directly to nutrition and how different types of food affect our hormones and body.

I have dozens of links supporting the things I'm saying but I doubt anyone cares enough to spend the time reading them.

Turtle o Wurtle

Okay coconut milk isn't "shite" but a it's still saturated fat. It's not as healthy as people like to think. Like I said it's on the fence between good and bad. Has health benefits, but fucks your heart. Your better off getting fats from olive and fish oil and almonds.

Turtle o Wurtle

Haak, can I ask what your stats are? height, weight bodyfat%? Just curious about how many calories you're munching daily. That brekkie is fucking vast. You eating all those eggs yolks too? not just the whites? That, combined with the coconut oil would send you into fat overkill I'd say. Cholesterol city.

google

Turtle o Wurtle said:
Haak, can I ask what your stats are? height, weight bodyfat%? Just curious about how many calories you're munching daily. That brekkie is fucking vast. You eating all those eggs yolks too? not just the whites? That, combined with the coconut oil would send you into fat overkill I'd say. Cholesterol city.

Last time I'm going to say this - FATS ARE FUCKING GOOD FOR YOU!!!!!!

They're bad for you if you're eating too many carbs, but good for you if you're eating a nurtitionally balanced diet, leading highly towards fats.

Bollockoff

@google i'd love some material if you've got some for the offering, tar. If anything it'l stop me bothering my trainers constantly with inane babble.

google

To clarify, eating a high fat diet means eating a lot of monounsaturated fats, which are principally found in olive oil and avocados. The same with Omega 3's and 6's.

google

Bollockoff said:
@google i'd love some material if you've got some for the offering, tar. If anything it'l stop me bothering my trainers constantly with inane babble.

OK.

Buy/steal/borrow this book http://robbwolf.com/shop/products/the-paleo-solution-the-original-human-diet/

It contains essential information on how our body works and deals with the different types of food. It gets a little scientific at points, but for the most part keeps it pretty simple.

Outside of that - visit this site - http://paleohacks.com

If you have any questions, issues, interest, what you should do is use the search bar and read the replies. It's great.

Is there something specific you wanted to understand? I can point you in the right direction?

Turtle o Wurtle

Would you eat lard exclusively for your fat source on a low carb, high fat and protein diet?

EDIT: late post, Google decided to rethink his spasticated comment.

google

Would you eat lard exclusively for your fat source on a low carb, high fat and protein diet?

I'd cook with lard if using extremely high temperatures, yes.

EDIT: The comment is not spasticated. You were stating that the fat found in coconut oil/milk is bad for you. It's not. It's extremely good for you, and will keep you healthy longer than if you didn't eat it.

The source you mentioned was printed four years ago and doesn't actually make a clear distinction between why its good/bad for you.

Speedhaak

Turtle o Wurtle said:
Haak, can I ask what your stats are? height, weight bodyfat%? Just curious about how many calories you're munching daily. That brekkie is fucking vast. You eating all those eggs yolks too? not just the whites? That, combined with the coconut oil would send you into fat overkill I'd say. Cholesterol city.

I'm 5ft 11" -- 11 3/4 st - 5% body fat.

Turtle o Wurtle

Last time I'm going to say this - FATS ARE FUCKING GOOD FOR YOU!!!!!!
They're bad for you if you're eating too many carbs, but good for you if you're eating a nurtitionally balanced diet, leading highly towards fats.

^^^
This is a spasticated comment. You know this because you had to clarify after this post that some fats are much better than others. Which is my point. Thanks.

google

Read this, Turtle.

http://paleodietlifestyle.com/fear-of-saturated-fat-and-cholesterol/

EDIT: For anyone interested, this is a really easy to understand article about how and why the Americans have fucked up with specifying why and how saturated fat/cholesterol will kill us all.

From a very basic standpoint - should we really be taking diet advice from the American government?

Turtle o Wurtle

Google, you're rather patronisingly assuming I know fuck all about nutrition, which isn't the case. I've tried many, many different eating plans over the years, including low carb high fat and protein and know from experience that it's fantastic for losing weight, but poor if you are lifting heavy weights 3 times a week. Carbs are the most readily available fuel for the body. Glucose is king when you need energy to train. Keto diets are great if you're not training hard, I've found, but suck if you wanna lift and gain muscle. You get very very tired.

I'll read that article though.

Bollockoff

google said:

Is there something specific you wanted to understand? I can point you in the right direction?

No no, you've already given me good leads thanks. I need to realise what the issues are myself first before I go inquiring. Paleo's less than a tenner on Amazon so i'll start there. Cheers mate.

google

Turtle o Wurtle said:
Google, you're rather patronisingly assuming I know fuck all about nutrition, which isn't the case. I've tried many, many different eating plans over the years, including low carb high fat and protein and know from experience that it's fantastic for losing weight, but poor if you are lifting heavy weights 3 times a week. Carbs are the most readily available fuel for the body. Glucose is king when you need energy to train. Keto diets are great if you're not training hard, I've found, but suck if you wanna lift and gain muscle. You get very very tired.

I'll read that article though.

I've not meant to be patronising I've simply responded the half-serious things you've been posting.

Surely a 'paleo' type diet would be the most beneficial way of eating if you are looking to gain muscle. A huge amount of protein to build the muscle, a huge amount of fat to give you energy and enough carbs to make you feel energised.

google

Turtle o Wurtle said:
Glucose is king when you need energy to train. Keto diets are great if you're not training hard, I've found, but suck if you wanna lift and gain muscle. You get very very tired.

Also:

Fat, especially saturated fat, is the cleanest energy source available to us. Unlike glucose and proteins, the metabolism of saturated fat doesnâ€™t create any toxic byproducts that need to be eliminated.

LesterUnlimited

Does Paleo fit into stamina work at all? If I'm training strength, it's for power and the majority of the time I'm training for endurance.

Speedhaak

I'm not sure I understand your question.

Turtle o Wurtle

google said:

Turtle o Wurtle said:
Glucose is king when you need energy to train. Keto diets are great if you're not training hard, I've found, but suck if you wanna lift and gain muscle. You get very very tired.

Also:
Fat, especially saturated fat, is the cleanest energy source available to us. Unlike glucose and proteins, the metabolism of saturated fat doesnâ€™t create any toxic byproducts that need to be eliminated.

I'm rather concerned that you're talking from the "this book says this" stand point rather than speaking from experience of practical application of a method over time. Like I said, I've tried many different approaches, for decent periods of time, over many years and personally, think low carb is flawed.

Keto, or Atkins-esque eating plans are incredibly effective at burning fat. I'd say they're actually peerless in this respect. They took off, I think, because they suit people with desk jobs that sit around all day. Low carb diets burn fat like fuck even when you're completely sedentary. They really do work. There are side effects though, like your system being flooded with ketones, which are a strain on the kidneys and cause bad breath. Also, like I said, training without carbs, or on a very low carb diet, is fucking hard work. Yes, your body can use fat for energy, but it's nowhere near as readily available for use by the body as glucose. Glucose is the energy of life. Yes, an excess is bad, but if you eat right, that won't be a problem. If you want to be lean, quickly, go low carb. If you want to be lean and build the maximum muscle mass at the same time, I highly recommend you don't cut carbs, because you won't be able to work as hard in the gym and thus wont break down as much muscle fibre and wont therefore build as much new muscle tissue. I've been there, tried that, as have countless others. But do whatever you wanna do, it's just advice. People get addicted to the very rapid fat loss that accompanies low carb/keto and sing its praises, but 3-4 weeks into it, if you're lifting hard 3 times a week....your dead. Absolutely fucking dead.

Turtle o Wurtle

Speedhaak said:

Turtle o Wurtle said:
Haak, can I ask what your stats are? height, weight bodyfat%? Just curious about how many calories you're munching daily. That brekkie is fucking vast. You eating all those eggs yolks too? not just the whites? That, combined with the coconut oil would send you into fat overkill I'd say. Cholesterol city.

I'm 5ft 11" -- 11 3/4 st - 5% body fat.

If that is a typical brekkie, what else would you eat on a normal training day? How are you measuring that 5% bf? Calipers? Those posh scales in Boots?

Speedhaak

lol No, it's not a typical breakfast - In reality, I'll only eat a breakfast like that three times a week. On a training day I'll eat something like this:

BREAKFAST:

4-8 Eggs for Breakfast with Butter [for fat] and Brown Toast with a Glass of Orange Juice and maybe a Protein Bar

LUNCH:

Soup [usually homemade Minestrone with loads of veg] and Tuna Fish Sandwiches [4 slices of white bread] with a Whey Shake and Banana

PRE TRAINING [17:30]

Nuts, Banana and depending on my cycle a Creatine shake

POST TRAINING

Full Dinner, either Chicken [2-4 whole Chicken Breasts] or Beef [1 pound of minced] in the guise of Curry or Chilli Con Carni. Every few days I swap out one for Fish, usually Haddock or Cod [again, four or five pieces of fish]

LATE EVENING SNACK [usually for fat in-take]

Cheese Pizza or A few Peanut Butter Sandwiches with a Protein Shake.

That kinda varies as well, but that's an average training day. I would eat more or less the same [if not more] on a off-training day. On a side note though, like I said, I'm a hard gainer - I have a ferocious metabolism. So I would on occasion try and eat lots of Ice Cream and Fat to try and bulk a bit.

google

google said:

Turtle o Wurtle said:
Glucose is king when you need energy to train. Keto diets are great if you're not training hard, I've found, but suck if you wanna lift and gain muscle. You get very very tired.

Also:
Fat, especially saturated fat, is the cleanest energy source available to us. Unlike glucose and proteins, the metabolism of saturated fat doesnâ€™t create any toxic byproducts that need to be eliminated.

I'm rather concerned that you're talking from the "this book says this" stand point rather than speaking from experience of practical application of a method over time.

This is a fair point.

I have my own personal anecdotal experience. I dropped around 20% of my bodyweight back in 2006 and turned my BMI from 35+ to the mid teens through a pretty tough regime of cross-fit-type gym workouts, a low carb diet and protein supplements.

It wasn't sustainable because I was not eating the correct foods. I was eating brown bread occasionally, but most of my food was centred around caloric intake and not the nutrition my body needed. I was tired, exhausted and was constantly without energy.

So I put the weight back on (not as much, but certainly went from a lean 180 up to the 200lb mark). I then struggled with this for a few years, drifting anywhere from 190 - 210 and +/- 4'' in my waist/chest.

Then recently after discovering I was going to be a dad, my paternal instinct kicked in. I realised I didnt want to be a fat fuck like my mum and dad with umpteen issues with heart, skin, etc. I wanted to eradicate these issues while becoming healthier.

Weight loss was not my goal, a cleaner body was. Thus the reason for Paleo. I jumped into scientific studies about the reaction humans have to gluten, bran, legumes and the like. I was intrigued as to how my body would feel without these 'toxins'.

So I stopped eating them.

I instantly lost inches. I gained energy. I was able to sleep better. I was able to work harder.

I started reading more into the ancestral history of humans and how they used to live. I had no idea CVD, Diabetes and the like were diseases recently contracted.

I didn't want to end up like that so I took action - thus the reasoning for my change in stance. By all means, if a low fat/high carb diet works for you - keep it up. But everything I'm saying is true, and I honestly believe that if you were to tweak your diet, you'd gain more energy, get better sleep, have a larger cock, etc. etc. etc.

Turtle o Wurtle

So you've done low carb before and experienced the chronic lack of energy, what kind of macronutrient ratios does paleo suggest?

You're assuming I'm currently on "high carb" but I never said that I was. I stated pages back that I think going extreme of any type of macro ratio is dumb because it's unsustainable and you crack eventually and go back to old habits, losing any gains you made. My ratios for the last 2 years have been 40% complex carbs 40% lean protein 20% good fats. I don't go without anything, stay lean, get 150 grams protein per day, eat all my good fats and have enough carbs to give me the energy to lift weights. I can also eat a huge variety of foods and eat out with friends and family no problem. Like I've said I've tried many things and these ratios, coupled with lean proteins, complex carbs and good fats is the best of all worlds. If your schedule allows, you can take this further like I used to and Skerret still does and do intermittent fasting 16 hours a day for even greater benefits.

I simply can't see the point in paleo/aktins/keto unless you are officially gluten allergic/intolerant or have celiacs.

sensible ratios, within your daily caloric goals does everything and will continue to do everything you need for the rest of your life, with minimal effort. Just avoid processed food, excess salt and keep the portions (daily calories) in check. BOSH.

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